Cars

Published on July 5th, 2015 | by Zachary Shahan

176

This Is Why I Believe An Electric Car Revolution Is Inevitable

July 5th, 2015 by  

Originally published on EV Obsession.

I’ve written about this before, a couple of times (or more), but I think it is time for another piece on it, since soooooo many people still don’t get it.

Tesla Model S Brown Amsterdam 2

In a “link drop” a week or so ago, I shared a Tesla Motors Club forum thread titled, “Is it Conceivable to Go Back to ICE After Driving a Tesla?” The thread now has over 100 posts, and I have to say that I haven’t gone through all of them. Luckily, though, an EV Obsession and CleanTechnica reader recently pointed me (and others) toward an awesome one toward the end. From neroden:


I can’t even stand to rent an ICE car. I can’t even stand to borrow someone else’s ICE car. It’s kind of embarassing.

When I got back in an ICE (recently repaired from body damage) after driving the Tesla Model S for a few months, I said “Why is it shaking? Is there something wrong with it? We’ll have to take it back to the repair shop!” My fiancee said, “Dear, I think it always did that.”

When other people offer to pick me up in their car, I offer to pick them up instead. Just so I don’t have to get in an ICE car.

I can just about tolerate getting into an ICE-powered taxi or limo. If I *must*.

Really, it’s that extreme. You will not want to go back to ICE cars.
– – – Updated – – –

 
Quote Originally Posted by forumman83 View Post
Seems like an overwhelming agreement. So what is “it” about Tesla or EV that makes you never want to go back?

 

It’s better.

…OK, I’ll unpack that a little. ICE cars shake violently all the time. They seem to want to move even when standing still. It’s exhausting just being in them at all. They have sluggish acceleration. They have frighteningly sluggish deceleration, making me fear that the car won’t stop when I take my foot off the gas. They have erratic response to the pedal, not linear response. The response is delayed, sluggish, non-responsive. They’re loud. They stink to be around because of the fumes. They’re unstable, with a poor center of gravity.

And you have to go to these weird stinky shops and pump stinky, carcinogenic slime into them. Regularly! Even in the cold! Outdoors! And you have to pay for the privilege!

And then there’s all the crazy maintenance. “Oil changes”, “timing belts”, on and on and on. And the hood gets really hot.

Oh, and the heat doesn’t come on for like ten minutes after you start driving in the morning, so you’re freezing the whole time.

It’s like going back from a sleek electric train to a steam locomotive. Except steam locomotives move more smoothly than ICE cars.

 

And is this the beginning of the end for ICE?

Yes.

– – – Updated – – –
 

Quote Originally Posted by Zythryn View Post
…I feel safe stating I will never buy another ICE. If I am feeling nostalgic, I’d sooner buy a horse.

 

Great line. And I agree.


Nissan Leafs Barcelona


 

There are more gems in that thread, but that was an exceptional one.

Others agreed in their own words. The last comment in the thread right now is this one from jvonbokel: “Well put. It is kind of embarrassing. I got rear ended 6mo ago (on the interstate!) and I still haven’t had it fixed in part because I don’t want to have to drive an ICE for even a few days (also because it’s minor enough that I barely notice it).”

I don’t know if there’s a point in trying to summarize the great… summary above. But to add my own words to this a bit in :

  • Electric cars have much better acceleration.
  • The acceleration isn’t just quicker, but it’s also smoother and quieter.
  • And the acceleration matches the pressure of your foot much better and more linearly.
  • The acceleration we’re talking about here is not the second half of a 0–60 mph sprint. No, it’s the instantaneous acceleration, the stuff that really matters. This is what makes getting onto a highway, into a roundabout, or off of a red light much easier and more enjoyable.
  • The only thing that might trump the acceleration of an electric car is the convenience of an electric car — you get home, you plug in, and you forget all about the wasted time and horrible smells that you had to suffer during countless trips to the money-flushing gas station. (Until you have to rent a car or drive in someone else’s… which you of course avoid like the plague!)
  • Aside from forgetting how horrible it is having to find a gas station every week and stand at it while smelling cancer-causing fumes and watching your money go down the drain, you can also forget about the annoyance of oil changes, timing belt repairs, muffler replacements, smog checks, etc. — EVs are just simpler and cleaner.
  • At the same time, your EV is smarter and more cultured, allowing you to pre-heat your cabin or even sleep in it with the AC on without spending many pennies at all or worrying about carbon monoxide poisoning.
  • Oil/gas prices spikes? Oil wars? Giving your money to oil tycoons in Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, the USA etc? Fuggedaboutit. All of it.

I’ll just close with response #103 in that Tesla Motors Club forum thread, from Mr X:

When you run out of electric range in the Volt and it switches to gas…

happy-sad

Images: Tesla Model S & Nissan LEAF pictures by Zachary Shahan | EV Obsession | CleanTechnica (CC BY-SA 4.0)

Kanye West GIF source unknown.


Check out our new 93-page EV report, based on over 2,000 surveys collected from EV drivers in 49 of 50 US states, 26 European countries, and 9 Canadian provinces.

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About the Author

is tryin' to help society help itself (and other species) with the power of the typed word. He spends most of his time here on CleanTechnica as its director and chief editor, but he's also the president of Important Media and the director/founder of EV Obsession, Solar Love, and Bikocity. Zach is recognized globally as a solar energy, electric car, and energy storage expert. Zach has long-term investments in TSLA, FSLR, SPWR, SEDG, & ABB — after years of covering solar and EVs, he simply has a lot of faith in these particular companies and feels like they are good cleantech companies to invest in.



  • Eric King

    What a giant load of bs-the reason electric cars will take over is simple-cost will eventually get lower and the fuel-electricity will be close to free and the cars will provide a huge benefit in smoothing out our power grid when they are hooked up to it-something electric car owners will eventually get paid for-energy arbitrage.

    The rest is just ridiculous prejudice akin to the prejudice gas engine owners have against electric cars. Gas powered engines are awesome-they’re just bad for the planet. But gas engines are almost alive-they breathe fire they sing they growl they do evetything living creatures do which makes them awesome-electric engines are dull in comparison.

    You can put an electric motor at each wheel and crush any gas powered cars perfomance-in fact I think electric perfomance cars will probably have to have dually rear tires to handle the massive torque at some point-and neck braces.

    But the whole crowing about how awful gas cars are is in poor taste-they’re great, just soon to be outmoded.

    • Bob_Wallace

      “What a giant load of bs-”

      This is a follow-on piece to the many, many articles Zach has previously written about the economics of EVs.

      Gas cars are great. If you don’t mind the cost to drive, noise, release of CO2 into the atmosphere, ….

  • neroden

    By the way, Zach, thanks for quoting me and attributing it properly. That was just a personal riff which I wrote off the cuff in the club forum. I really *am* embarassed by the degree to which I’ve become an ‘electric car snob’ in my personal driving. I know a lot of people can’t afford an electric car with enough range for their needs, or live in places where they can’t get outlets installed.

    And my fiancee really did have to say “Dear, I think it was always like that.”

    • Ha, don’t be embarrassed. It’s the future, and you are helping others to get there. 😀

  • S.Nkm

    The ultimate car revolution will be the disappearance of the car, electric or not.

    • Bob_Wallace

      You really think there will be a time when people don’t have some sort of personalized transportation other than a bike or pair of shoes?

      • S.Nkm

        Maybe not in the country side, but in urban areas yes.

        • Bob_Wallace

          Are you saying “cars” as in privately owned personal vehicles may go away?
          I can see a lot of people no longer owning a car if they can phone for a self-driving car. But not everyone.

        • neroden

          Sure, but there’s a lot of countryside! Beyond pure ‘countryside’, there are small cities surrounded by countryside. Like the one I live in.

          Even the countryside “niche” is quite important.

  • Robert Pollock

    Color tv, back to Black & White.
    I sold my Tacoma and got the Spark EV. My wife kept her sports car, which ended up under a car-cover within two weeks. She mostly drives my Spark now, using the ICE car only for very short trips when we both need a car, (less gas) or long ones. We only use the ICE car if there isn’t an option. Still, to maintain the ICE car, it goes to a mechanic occasionally. Last time, while following her home in my EV, she pulled her ICE car over, as if it was broken. When I stopped she said, “you drive it for a while and tell me what’s making all that rattling and coughing”, so I drove it home. There was nothing wrong with it, our mechanic is very good, she just forgot how rough a Mercedes SLK is. (It’s out of warranty so it goes to a local Merc specialist when it needs maintenance. In MB’s defence, the SLK has a roof that folds into the trunk and apparently that feature rattles) (Defense – verb, defence – noun)

    • haha, that’s funny. and especially great since the Spark EV is one of the cheapest EVs on the market (but yeah, I know it is a bit quicker off the line than others).

      and yes, i had a lot of fun driving an SLK from FL to NC in college, but the driving quality doesn’t compare even to a LEAF, imho.

    • neroden

      “Last time, while following her home in my EV, she pulled her ICE car
      over, as if it was broken. When I stopped she said, “you drive it for a
      while and tell me what’s making all that rattling and coughing”, so I
      drove it home. There was nothing wrong with it, ”

      Ha ha — that’s the exact experience I had, except I was in the position of your wife, and my fiancee was in your position. It’s funny to see that other people have had the same experience.

  • Bob_Wallace

    Tesla S curb weight 4,647.

    Prius curb weight 3,012 pounds. Net 1,635 less.

    A gallon of gasoline, which weighs about 6.3 pounds, produces 20 pounds of carbon dioxide(CO2) when burned.

    10,000 miles per year. 50 MPG EPA combined. 200 gallons of gas, 4,000 pounds of CO2 per year.

    • DecksUpMySleeve

      Let’s port that 10,000 to a Tesla S which you mentioned, 3.117 miles per kWh, so 10000/3.117 x .8 Lb coal per kWh, 2.86Lb co2 per coal lb, 7340.39 pounds.
      Until the grids green surplus added weight to the grid goes to the plants that wind up and down on demand, which is Coal currently.

      • Bob_Wallace

        Zach just emailed me ” coal is down to 34.6%! from 41.1% last year for the same period”.

        By next year coal should be providing less than 30% of US electricity.

        • DecksUpMySleeve

          And I applaud that as well 🙂

    • Greg Hudson

      Bob, don’t waste your breath on someone who sounds like an Exxon employee

  • DecksUpMySleeve

    Generic Agreement for Upvote
    What is wrong with you lemmings…

    • Huh? Don’t follow your comment.

      • DecksUpMySleeve

        I’ll elaborate, I look through the comment section and those “most upvoted” are those in stern agreement with often pompous pro EV comments. Anything remotely hard to swallow goes untouched. Like thought/idea leprosy.

        • Bob_Wallace

          People haz feelings….

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            Actually I think the average person prefers not to feel, which is why they seem to seek a reflection/agreement as is primally favored.
            Primates always have favored imitation.

        • lol. Yeah, most people here are very bullish on EVs. Go figure. 😉

          If that bothers you, unless you like being bothered, I don’t imagine you’ll enjoy sticking around.

          Of course, you are free to disagree, but most of us have experienced, read, and watched enough to have a pretty clear idea of what we think about EVs and the future of transport.

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            I understand that, and have been an EV proponent for years. I’m not disagreeing with their adoption but how I view their current fuel source and that a 50mpg 2010prius would be counter productive to replace.

          • jeffhre

            MIT Sloan studies show most of the energy used by a car is from driving it not manufacture – so passing on a 2010 Prius so that someone can use it to replace their ’77 Regal, may not be a bad idea.

          • neroden

            Depends on whether you’re selling that 2010 Prius onwards to someone driving an even less efficient car, doesn’t it? (As jeffhre implied.) Obviously such a new and efficient car should not be junked.

  • brian alf

    The point I was makeing in my first post is than all four points will cause a catch 22 situation increasing electric car sales

  • sandy222

    … so to create a “newsworthy” article, you just borrow, lift from that source … sad

    • Bob_Wallace

      Zach runs both sites and writes for both.

      You may now self-administer a dope slap…..

      • sandy222

        Zach does not run TMC.

        • Bob_Wallace

          TMC didn’t write this article.

          Quoting another site with proper attribution is how the world works.

          • sandy222

            Proper attribution?
            They all hide behind avatars!

          • Bob_Wallace

            You have some strange “issues”.

          • sandy222

            Issues?
            I would say you have issues calling TMC proper attribution!

    • You mean the forum or EV Obsession?

      If you are referring to the forum, I go through ~400-500 posts a day to choose ~10 of the ~15 for our site. There’s value in curation, you know? In this particular thread, there were >100 posts. If you want to go read through all of them, feel free! I love the TMC forum and would encourage people to subscribe. But people come to CleanTechnica for top cleantech highlights. Some come from forum discussions, some from news, some from original analysis. No pressure to subscribe if you don’t care for what we offer. 😀

      If you are referring to EV Obsession, I founded the site and run both of these sites, so… yeah, I cross-post stuff. 😀

      • sandy222

        TMC is filled with wannabes posturing themselves.
        And an owner here or there.
        Most of it is (expletive deleted) and to copy from that source is plain time wasting. You’re better of writing your own stuff.
        I have met many people on the road who dislike it so much, never go there anymore … and told me of the political behind the scenes infighting. I’ve even met a couple of banned members who’ve shared their documentation … wow … Painful

        • neroden

          I’ve found TMC very useful (absolute best place to find out about any design defects or recurring problems discovered with the Model S), but it is true that it’s run by people with particular political axes to grind, and they can be very unhappy when people point out that Elon Musk has done *anything* wrong. (He’s done lots of things wrong. The car’s still great, though.)

          • I’ve been following it for a long time. It has >26,000 subscribers. I think it’s a pretty good mix. Of course, the most active users tend to be the most enthusiastic, but that’s not really surprising… And certainly doesn’t turn me off to the forum, which provides a wealth of information and perspective. You just have to be careful to check the sources, assumptions, and math at times.

  • brian alf

    The electric car revolution is going to happen when wind power is used to make hydrogen gas for hydrogen cars instead of paying about 1 million per day switch of wind in the uk and sold in petrol filling stations reduceing the place to buy petrol and diesel also the current price of oil means it is not profitable to explore for new oil wells and if the price does increase increasing the price of fuel some drives would think about buying a electric car .on Wednesday the uk chancellor is expected to increase petrol and diesel fuel duty

      • brian alf

        You might be right only time will tell .the advancement of electric cars source of power hyrogen or increased battery range is as repored in one of clean technica posts is makeing drivers hold back on going electric .the best solution is to have a hydrogen battery hybrid instead of petrol or diesel

        • hydrogen really makes no sense in cars. even people i know who have long worked in the hydrogen fuel cell industry agree with that. it’s just hype. there’s a book on it.

          • brian alf

            What will the hydrogen fuel cells be use for ? If not in cars as stated in my first post wind power farms are payed about 1 million a day to switch of due to low demand and the fact it’s quicker to switch of a turbine than taking a coal power station

          • Bob_Wallace

            What for? Maybe very little.

            Batteries are almost certain to win for transportation and short term electricity storage. Fuel cells of some sort might be used in niche situations and for extended periods of low wind and solar output. But the fuel may not be hydrogen.

            Don’t understand what you’re saying about “payed about 1 million …”

          • brian alf

            The uk national grid pays the wind power generating company’s a payent as compensation for switching off the turbines that are producing power when there’s low demand for power

          • Bob_Wallace

            Do you know why that happens?

          • brian alf

            From what I have seen on tv and internet .its quicker to turn of a wind turbine than taking a coal or gas power station off line .all power sources are payed constraint payend to balance to grid but you only hear about the wind power source payment from people apposed to wind farms

          • Bob_Wallace

            Yes, it is quicker. If the wind is blowing.

            “all power sources are payed constraint payend to balance to grid ”

            Not in the US.

            Here’s what happens (mostly) in the US. Coal and nuclear plants are hard to shut down and restart. They will sell their electricity at a loss, at a price low enough to cause wind to curtail.

            We’ve had one nuclear reactor shut down because it couldn’t make money. Exelon has six reactors that have been losing money for over five years and probably would be shut down if it wasn’t so expensive to decommission them.

          • brian alf

            Regarding the nuclear power stations being shut down now much power does it taken to stop a off line reactor heed to be kept stable in the uk the amount of power gerarated can be found at http://www.gridwatch.templar.co uk follow links to edf nuclear reactors currently two reactors
            Off line useing 3 mw and 4 mw a few weeks a go hunterston reactor was stoped by seaweed

          • brian alf

            Regarding the constraint payment made to taken power generation off line from the national grid web site in 2012/2013 total payments 170 million 7 million for wind

          • neroden

            Ontario, with Way Too Much Power Generation, has repeatedly sold both nuclear and hydro at a loss to upstate NY.

          • brian alf

            The uk national grid pays a constraint payment to the wind power companies when the demand for power is low and there’s to much wind power

          • brian alf

            I agree about the use of hydrogen to give instant grid power producded and stored at electric substation produced from all intermittent renewable sources
            Wind solar

          • dogphlap dogphlap

            I believe the name R102 is unclaimed. It was to be used in 1930 for an airship of that name but following an unfortunate incident with R101 it was never built. Use the fuel cells in that, (the H2 could be shared with the gas bag above) electric motors for propulsion of course. /s

        • Fred Bellows

          YES! The theoretical possible advancement of hydrogen IS making people hold back on going electric. Fact! This is NO ACCIDENT. This is very much BY DESIGN! Toyota and others are paid by the oil cartels to promote the myth of hydrogen in order to do just that! Make people wait. It is all part of the much, much bigger over all anti-EV campaign that is in full-tilt-boogie mode as we speak. Is it any wonder EV’s are still slow to take off?

          • Bob_Wallace

            “Toyota and others are paid by the oil cartels to promote the myth of hydrogen”

            Please document that claim.

            Don’t post stuff you’ve made up, if that’s what you did.

          • Fred Bellows

            I can’t ‘document’ the fact that Toyota’s never-ending stall-tactic false promises of hydrogen still being ‘right around the corner’, and their lack of production EV’s for sale are tied to, and compensated by, their close relationships with oil companies, any more than you can document that we are about to move “…to 200 mile range EVs some solution for rapid charging for all brands will appear. And Tesla should soon have a $30k to $35k EV. Then later a much more affordable model.” But some of these things we do pick up on by reading and following this industry so closely.

          • Bob_Wallace

            Since you made a very hard to believe and possibly liabilous claim for which you provide no proof it’s coming down.

          • i think it has more to do with Toyota wanting the conventional hybrid market, which it dominates, to remain strong. When BEVs & PHEVs come and crush that market, Toyota will probably feel the pain more than anyone else.

          • Fred Bellows

            So, you don’t think that any of these companies that show prototypes touting the idea that hydrogen is ‘right around the corner’ have any relationship with the anti-EV propaganda machine, to make people ‘wait and see’? You think they are all honestly working on finding a way to make hydrogen cost effective and hope to be in that business? – And you feel Toyota’s insistance on showing hydrogen prototypes and continued delay to enter the EV market is just to help them sell more hybrids? ‘Seems strange that the world’s largest automaker couldn’t also offer an EV and not have it ruin their hybrid sales, no?

          • Bob_Wallace

            Some companies get on the wrong path and have trouble seeing that they’re getting in trouble. Look at Kodak. Wang.

            FCEVs sounded like a good idea a few years back. Batteries were too expensive. Batteries developed and dropped in price.

            Japan seems to have bought into the idea of hydrogen. Either they know something that the rest of the world seems to not know, or they are heading down a cul de sac.

            One doesn’t need to get all into conspiracy stuff. The simpler explanations are more likely. For example, the FCEV division of Toyota is being run by a knucklehead who has surrounded himself with yes men and he just doesn’t realize what is happening with batteries and EVs. He may have someone telling him that cheap hydrogen is just around the corner and he’s accepting their word.

          • Anon

            The simplest explanation is that Toyota just might have it right, and we’re all barking up the wrong tree. I can’t for the life of me understand their apparent position, but that’s one smart and well run company that has been exceedingly successful in the industry. Can they end up being as wrong as we all think they’ll be? Sure. But the simplest explanation is really that they have better information than the rest of us.

            Well, obviously it’s the simplest explanation other than the obvious one that they are in cahoots with oil companies and are investing billions of dollars in a misdirection scheme to trick the world into ignoring EVs.

          • Bob_Wallace

            “The simplest explanation is that Toyota just might have it right, and we’re all barking up the wrong tree.”

            That’s a simple explanation but for it to be true would mean that Toyota has discovered some super-cheap way to produce and compress hydrogen. Toyota has publicly stated that it will cost 17 cents a mile to fuel their Mirai. In order for Toyota to have it right they would have to know a way to drive their FCEV for less than 3 cents a mile. A way to cut hydrogen cost to <20% of what it now is?

          • Adrian

            That’s just weird. On Toyota’s part, that is.

            I’m almost coming around to the idea of it being a bit of misdirection to their competitors…

            They have a fabulous reliable and adaptable hybrid drivetrain that can go in just about any of their FWD transverse applications. The development has all been paid for at this point. Why not spread that far and wide across their model lines, with plug-in where appropriate, and be hard at work on BEVs?

            Now that said, there were articles a couple years back about Toyota and solid-state Li-on batteries. That’s all gone very quiet. Is their skunkworks still plugging away at it? Nobody knows! They could drop a killer battery-electric car on the market tomorrow and we wouldn’t know it was coming, they’re very hush-hush on upcoming models.

            Remembering back to their 1/X carbon-fiber concept and the solid-state battery articles, I do think they’re at work on something. Especially with all their carbon-fiber-experienced Lexus LFA engineers (the Supra can’t possibly be the only iron in that fire)…

  • Rosana Francescato

    I’m convinced! As soon as a few issues are resolved — never mind cost, if you don’t have a garage, where do you plug in? I’m parking my car on the street these days …

    • Bob_Wallace

      SoCal Edison recently put up (IIRC) $35 million to assist with installing 30,000 charge outlets in their service area. Workplace and apartment parking lots are the main targets.

      Curbside charging is already installed in a few places. More will come.
      And most people could plug in for a half-hour once a week at a Tesla Supercharger and get all the power they need. Plug in while eating lunch, grocery shopping, checking messages, whatever.

      I think utilities are starting to understand that EVs are a brand new market for them. Expect enlightened utilities to help with the installation of more places to charge – new customers to make up for the market loss due to efficiency and end-user solar.

      • Rosana Francescato

        Yes, it will all happen in time — not too much time, I hope! I can’t afford a Tesla and would really need to be able to charge at night, so holding out for curbside. (No parking lot where I work or at home.)

        • Bob_Wallace

          As we move to 200 mile range EVs some solution for rapid charging for all brands will appear. And Tesla should soon have a $30k to $35k EV. Then later a much more affordable model.

      • Greg Hudson

        Plugging in to a SC once a week is frowned upon by Tesla. They actively monitor who plugs in, and when / where as well. I believe someone in SoCal received a letter asking them to stop unless they were on a long distance run.

        • Bob_Wallace

          Let’s just say that plugging into a rapid charger like Tesla’s Supercharger once a week would take care of most people’s needs. It’s one way for people who don’t have off street parking/charging to use an EV.

          Tesla is going to have to sort out what they mean by free unlimited use. The problem might even be coming from people who charge more than once a week. I recently read a comment from someone that they now avoid a particular charging station because it’s always full of taxis charging. That could be daily charging.

          Maybe by the time Tesla moves to the X and 3 they will define the number of free uses per year and work out a fee for further use.

    • neroden

      I agree that’s a big issue.

      — There are some places (especially California) where they allow property owners to put electric plugs in bollards by the curb (in the space between the sidewalk and the street) for their cars. The wiring is more expensive than a garage wiring, but it only has to be done once.
      — Apartment buildings and condos in California are now *required* to allow the renter / condo owner to install electric charging spots (at the renter / condo owner’s expense). In other states, it can be a big fight with the landlord or condo association, which is a real problem.

  • BPR

    Okay. The condescending tone of this article, the author, and the thread pasted at the beginning is NOT a winning strategy to convert new buyers. I didn’t even know what the term “ICE car” meant until I looked it up and was like, “Oh, a regular car”; but apparently “ICE” is a derogatory term. I think electric cars are important and would gladly buy one, if the technology ever becomes affordable in price and accessible in powering up (i.e., I live in an apartment where connecting such a car to an outlet privately isn’t yet doable)…but my instinct when reading the tone and the self-satisfied attitude of the commentators was “F-You, I’m staying with my regular car!”. You need to recalibrate your approach to be more inclusive and stop looking down your nose at the rest of us uncouth rednecks.

    • kw

      Totally agree (and I speak as someone who’s owned an EV for 18 months).

    • tech01xpert

      Ah, you are a prickly one. This thread on TMC reflects owner’s own reactions to driving ICE vehicles after spending time driving a Tesla. It isn’t about converting you. Now, it might be instructive for those that don’t drive EVs, but it isn’t about you.

    • Bob_Wallace

      ICE = internal combustion engine
      ICEV = internal combustion engine vehicle

      ICEVs are one of the things that are screwing our climate. Don’t expect concerned people to fell all warm and fuzzy toward them.

      EVs for the rest of us are coming. Things should be very different two years from now as a couple of longer range, more affordable EVs come to market. And things should continue to get better from there on.

    • Greg Hudson

      Admitting you were uneducated does not mean the rest of us are (and I’m still an ICE driver). Your interpretation of ICE as being derogatory is IMO incorrect. It is nothing more than an abbreviation, and there are lots of those in the EV world.

    • ~30-50% of our articles are about EVs, and we publish *a lot*. Some are more geared toward the choir than others. Sorry that you feel offended, but we’re just having some fun. Curious where you came in from…? (How you were referred to this piece.)

    • Adrian

      Hey, some people still ride horses too. I’m fine with that so long as they pick up after themselves. (I have occasionally grabbed a shovel and bucket and “returned” some horse exhaust to it’s owner.) Likewise with car exhaust…

    • neroden

      “ICE” means internal combustion engine.

      As opposed to an electric car (with a “motor”) or an “external combustion engine” better known as a “steam engine”

      Totally neutral tech-specific term.

  • Jacob

    Sleeping in an EV is great with the AC on.

    No need to cool the whole room.

    And the car would be much better insulated.

    • GCO

      There’s something wrong with your house if a box of metal and single-pane glass on wheels is “much better insulated”…

      • Jacob

        In my room, the gap between the door and the carpet is huge.

        My room is also big.

        I do not have double glazed windows at home.

        There are also gaps between the windows and the window frames.

        • Bob_Wallace

          Well, fix your house. Weatherstripping is cheap.

          Air exchange is a much larger issue that single pane glass.

        • neroden

          Superinsulating a house is really the best bang for your buck you can get. (Put in an ERV or HRV and then you can completely seal the house.)

        • Anon

          If you mean that you have a gap under your exterior door, then holy Christ fix that now. Prob cost $5to fix and will pay back in your first winter heat bill.

          But if you mean a gap under your interior door, that’s by design. It can be a bit counterintuitive, but that gap allows spent air to recirculate to the rest of the house. If you close off those gaps, then with interior doors shut, the hot air off your forced hot air or off your radiator (or cold air in the summer) will be encouraged to escape through gaps in your exterior windows to the outside world instead. Don’t ever close off the gap under interior doors.

          • Jacob

            Yes it is an interior door of my room.

  • Is there a chance E-Golfs will be cheaper than a Leaf with the new lower Euro/dollar exchange rate?
    It seems like this is an opportunity for Volkswagen to beat Nissan to the top selling EV.

  • Michael G

    Look at what sells. Top 10 in US: 3 trucks (F-150,…), 4 cars (Camry, Corolla, Accord, Civic), 3 SUVs. The top selling cars are NOT bought because of acceleration. You’re talking to “enthusiasts” here who all agree that beating a Porsche is what it’s all about. Most people don’t care.

    As for quiet, “close enough” will do for most people – (Corolla, Civic…). Get an EV in the price range and with the capabilities of each of the top 10 selling vehicles and you can claim victory. I think maybe in 10 years, if all goes well. Until then, EVs will stay on the margins. And something better may emerge. And people are unpredictable and irrational.

    You’re young and male so acceleration matters to you. This too shall pass.

    • jeffhre

      My Civic Si was loud on accelerating. When I got tired of that, my Volt was a lot of fun, and saved a lot of gas doing it. PHEV’s and EVs give drivers a chance to work on totally eliminating gas from their daily driving.

      • Michael G

        The fact you got an Si marks you as one of a very few that are willing to sacrifice space for fun. That’s fine but if we depend on only your demographic to buy EVs the planet is doomed.

        Many would like to eliminate ICE’s – I was just saying acceleration isn’t that important to most people.

        • jeffhre

          “The fact you got an Si marks you as one of a very few that are willing to sacrifice space for fun.” = 4 door sedan?

          “That’s fine but if we depend on only your demographic to buy EVs the planet is doomed.”

          LOL, what is my demographic?

          • Michael G

            People who buy fun cars like the Si with very little passenger or storage space.

    • Meh. Acceleration doesn’t matter bcs it’s not a drastically different experience across ICE vehicles (yes, I know it is to some degree, but not like vs EVs). But yeah, of course, they need to be the types of vehicles people want anyway. in time.

    • neroden

      I don’t even know why the trucks are bought. Most of those truck buyers don’t need trucks and are engaging in a weird form of conspicuous consumption.

      It’s not just the acceleration, though. There’s just so many ways in which EVs drive better — the smooth ride is not appreciated by a lot of people at first, but is appreciated more and more the longer you use the car.

      • Michael G

        I’m not saying EVs aren’t better, just that the reasons cited aren’t that compelling for a lot of people who just want reasonable ways of getting around. Cost and practicality drive many purchases and EVs have a way to go to match the price with the range.

      • Was gathering this from the comments shared in the article, and some here. People thinking ICE cars are broken when that’s just how they are…

  • ttman

    A lot of gas has been wasted over the years because of American car drivers’ desire for quick acceleration. A bigger, lower mileage engine – that is required for maintaining speed – has to be installed to satisfy the acceleration desires. Good to hear that EVs can satisfy that desire for acceleration.

    • Steve Grinwis

      My Smart ED can take a Porsche Boxster across an intersection. And it’s not even a fast EV. The Chevy Spark would absolutely trounce it, and that’s without even mentioning the Tesla P85D.

      • GCO

        Actually the lowly Fiat 500e out-accelerates the Spark… up to 30 MPH or so.
        (Yeps, motor torque figures are meaningless if not also taking into consideration what gearing separates it from the wheels).

        But I agree, all those EVs are basically go-karts when it comes to how fun and responsive they are at low speeds.

  • DecksUpMySleeve

    Meh, A to B.
    Of course I prefer a continual transmission(my personal vehicle, non-EV) to a 4-6, but I myself am used to the ICE acceleration as well, there is a micro-second timing to their thrust which at times allows a very fluid action.
    You have to be a bit attune with an ICE, much like the type rate of an old electronic device, you get a rhythem not to out-pace it.
    I don’t like the idea of a coal powered car, not in the least, as it stands thats what I see. A heavy coal powered car, a status symbol, a price tag. Soon enough in a few years we may start to move beyond that, but that’s how their viewed in my present, Load to the Grid. A piece of straw atop a 39.8 billion tonne pile of carbon.. I know they’ll become the norm with advancing batteries but I can’t say manufacturing a new car for every driver is a good idea in and of itself.
    In a world soundly powered a silent car’s the answer.. Until then I’m withholding my childish glee and buzzwords.

    • Bob_Wallace

      Put some panels on your roof. Feed as much into the grid as you take out to charge your EV at night and then you can drive oil free. A petroleum free.

      • jeffhre

        And advocate for feed in tariffs, so that we can feed in more clean electricity than we use!

        • Greg Hudson

          I’m one of the lucky (actually not lucky, SMART ones). I am on a Feed In Tariff of 68c/kWh. A peak buy rate of 27c and off peak buy rate of 12c. Total power bill for 2014 was just $320. (Prior to solar, was $1800/year)

    • Dag Johansen

      Where do you live? My local utility is has less than 2% coal in their mix. The USA grid is currently 39% coal and dropping. Solar & wind make up the majority of new generating capacity added to the grid.

      So if you buy a gas car, it is always a gas car. But an EV gets cleaner & cleaner as the grid cleans up. And as Bob points out, just get some solar panels if you really want to make a difference.

      • DecksUpMySleeve

        Oh, I could make a much larger difference..
        Anyways, my life’s plan will probly turn out off grid.
        At current course I’m set make a much more positive impact on the world by not investing in the current but instead our future.
        I hope to lead by example in demonstrating fully self-sustaining shelter. I could make a drop in the pond by spending on current efficiencies or demonstate the future of it. So for me the possible global impact outweights what would be a localized ineffectuality.

        • jeffhre

          All of the negative things you mention…made possible by folks who are just biding their time and not speaking up.

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            The negative things are a product of current human ethics, priorities, and evidently primal psychological instincts bleeding into the modern world.

          • Fred Bellows

            If everything you say is true, and I believe it is, then you have but one choice in this, very important decision. Feeling the way you do, you must become part of the solution that you know is the only true and right answer and refuse to drive another mile on polluting, limited fossil fuels. Or else surely you are part of the problem. Please use your intellect and wisdom to share with the world, through explanaition and by example, the utter importance of doing this one simple (and only) thing that we can all do that will truly make a difference in the battle against the climate crisis that, without these efforts, will bring submerged coastal cities and food species die-off, and seriously threaten the survival of our species. http://fredbellows.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-ultimate-patriotic-statement.html

          • Bob_Wallace

            “refuse to drive another mile on polluting, limited fossil fuels”

            That’s not realistic, Fred.

            Solutions have to be acceptable and affordable or they will simply be ignored.

          • Fred Bellows

            why is it not ralistic? I personally know some that do it already. This decksupmysleeve seems absolutely convinced that the world is doomed due to the impending climate crisis, so he could find a way drive pure electric and powered by sustainables in order to have people listen to his heartfelt views. We all could. I drive about 80% with our leaf, and 20% with our prius. And I live in Phx where everything is spread out.

          • Bob_Wallace

            Some do. But that does not mean all will. Many people will not change their behavior unless they are given a reason that appeals to them.

            We’ve tried for decades to get people to green up. That has not been adequately successful. Forcing people to change would be hard and likely unsuccessful.

            The best approach, IMO, is to give people a choice and make sure the green one tastes better.

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            To be clear my Prius isn’t the tipping point butterfly effect for our downfall. The lack of me giving the world my best in the way of invention could be such a tipping point though. I gave my mind completely to the future of sustainable habitation for a few years, I’m fairly secure that I’ve devised a practical model for us to mutually inhabit Earth, but it’s at odds with a great deal of the “economic model” and “centralized society”. I mean, it’s not quite a biodome or mars base or anything but it does put a low reliability on society for food, water, power. I believe strongly that centralization has near achieve the downfall of man in many ways. To some it sounds radical but if looked at objectively it’s pretty true of our top heavy often irrationally ran social structure.
            What I’m suggesting is we rely on what we know of biocycles and work along side them for a better way of life, localized reliance, water collection, purification, food production, power production, needs met highly proximate lifestyles. That’s immensely simplified, but to the length I’m willing to discuss it.
            Not only that but I gave power production quite a bit of thought, and basically came up with multiple concepts which can initiate electromagnetic induction without the motive means(eg wind turbine).
            I was pretty excited while piecing together the puzzle of the house design, suspension(yes house suspension), biocycle balances, species choices, aeration systems the list goes on.
            I got I’d say 70% complete then the thought dawned on me, that this tornado proof food cultivating housing would sever man from nature. While man when not reliant on something becomes complacent, my mind fast forwarded 500 years to new hobbies forming which destroyed the world around it while inside their homes they sat immune letting the natural world waste away. No super-volcano eruption, no celestial impact, no disease could cleanse mother Earth.
            And then I quit inventing entirely, which you may not believe me, was my utmost satisfaction, a musician without sound. I just couldn’t face being the next Einstein saying “if I had to live it over again I would be a plumber”. I’ve read many a biography of great inventors, most with soul crushing regrets don’t wanna be the next one to scar the world.
            It’s up to you to believe any of this or not, I truly couldn’t care.

          • neroden

            I’m sympathetic, given that I gave up on working on a major invention which could have provided batteries with 100x the energy density of current batteries for about 10x the cost per gram. (So 1/10 the cost per kwh.) Just ’cause it doesn’t seem like it’s ever gonna get adopted. So why bother. :sigh:

          • Ankit

            Dear DecksUpMySleeve,

            Quitting is running! no more no less. You are not satisfied because of quitting or because you prevented something evil from happening. Know that If you won’t do, someone else will. But it will always be done. The mankind is meant to progress until the doom’s day. If you believe in something, make it your life. You and your ideals will lead many others in a direction of what you think is right. Quitting simply means you are fed up. Quitting must never be an option. It is simply running away from your responsibilities.

            In the coming days, I hope you choose what you think is right. But I seriously hope that you make a choice without running away.

          • dogphlap dogphlap

            Dear Bob_Wallace,
            you are trying to have a rational argument with someone who has just written “I’m not as worried about coast line as I am in a possible cooling trend due to solar irradiance deficiency”. I have to assume he has some special information that has alerted him to this imminent possibility of the suns output dropping to scary levels. As you and I are unaware of such a creditable threat this might be the time to withdraw from the field and leave it to DecksUpMySleeve and his mysterious voices of wisdom.

            Best regards.

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            I’m not sure the coastal line will shift all that much, the peak shift in such would have to be very rapid, and in the same breath a very rapid freshwater infusion could very well instead stall us into an ice age. I’m not as worried about coast line as I am in a possible cooling trend due to solar irradiance deficiency and it’s effect on crop seasons and frosts from ~2021-2027. That as well as inland potable water could leave us in quite the quagmire. We’re somewhat lucky atm that as well topped out 400ppm CO2 we ran into the start of the 120 year cooling trough, one I anticipate to last through 2033 9 down 9 up. Sadly if we burn out way through it thinking we’re immune it’ll be a massive runaway by 2031, pretty much sealing the deal for our species.
            The time is surely now for the shift but the collective hive mentality needs to change it’s course at least to a degree willingly if they want a tomorrow. As much as technology plots the course of progress there has to be a social maturity along side it or it’s merely monkeys with fire, and though it might warm them through the night, great ills could come of it.

          • jeffhre

            It “stays what it is” when no one speaks out.

        • James Haskins

          Actually you have most of your points backwards. The atom bomb came before atomic energy was developed. Computer cd’s were originally developed for mass storage of military information. GPS was invented for military use, as was the jet engine, satellites and even the internet.

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            Actually you’re incorrectly informed. Atomic energy was the intent, the bomb was the creation.
            They hoped to out-manufacture the enemy, but the power that be chose to weaponize it instead.
            Military science was nearly always patents and ideas lifted off people with better intentions.
            Gps, satellite, Jet turbine, Internet
            Tesla, Tesla, Tesla, and Tesla.
            All made possible by one man who hated war, deeming it childish.

          • James Haskins

            Well, you can think (and type) what you want, but it seems your lamentation over human nature (or government nature) has led to you passing off your opinions/perceptions as fact. But, clearly you are not going to be convinced otherwise. I also know these topics..not from living them per-say, but from reading, research (no, not just on the internet) and teaching. Anyway, you are now playing a word game as you clearly wrote “Atomic power became the atomic bomb.” And that statement was incorrect (as were others) in an attempt to lend to lend credence to your point(s).

            To quote John Adams, “Facts are stubborn things”. The bomb came first. Atomic energy (energy for public use) came later. Those are facts, but feel free to spew what you want on the internet. I, and many like me, served to protect the rights of everyone, including the right to come off as intellectually enlightened and superior over the internet. 🙂

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            As I said, the intent of invention, formula wise was for the atomic power. The inventor though that was what they work toward, until the operative phase when the reaction was tested within a bomb.

            The chalkboards, the minds, were seeking atomic power.

          • neroden

            Really not right. They told Einstein they wanted an atomic bomb design — specifically that they wanted to have the designs for one *before Hitler did*, as a deterrent. Einstein cooperated.

            A lot of the US atomic bomb program was motivated by the urge to develop the bomb before Hitler did. The US had not realized that Hitler had abandoned his atomic bomb program. (He had the most advanced program for a while, before abandoning it, and the US *did* know that.)

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            Dude, stop quoting text books and read some articles from 1963 or possibly Einstein’s autobiography.
            I know the “text book” version, which is nearly always a half truth, do not attempt to educate me with what I’ve already overridden via a more accurate in depth account.
            Also don’t sing praise of Edison, leave out operation paperclip, falsify the CIA/NASAs origins, or tell me capitalism makes the world go round.

          • neroden

            My Dad MET Einstein. Trust me, this is correct.

            Einstein didn’t think they’d ever actually use it. They said it was just a deterrent, y’know…

            He wasn’t the only one who knew how to do nuclear fission, anyway. Pretty much all the others were being fed the same line… “we have to have the capability before Hitler”.

        • neroden

          Actually, the atomic bomb was developed before atomic power, just for historic reference. Atomic power was a half-assed attempt to redeem themselves by the atomic bomb developers, who were full of guilt.. This is one reason nuclear power as-built is so crappy; the design is basically “use a nuclear bomb to boil water”, which is not what you’d design if you were really thinking in terms of electricity generation.

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            Read my responses already posted to your same 2 comments. Great minds do not seem to think alike.

    • Coal is under 40% of the grid in the US. And dropping. Meanwhile, you can (theoretically) put solar on your roof or buy into community solar and drive on sunshine.

      But anyhow, EVs are greener on just about every inch of the US even charging from the grid.

      http://cleantechnica.com/2014/09/19/electric-cars-greener-course-getting-greener-every-day/

    • The energy to power my car comes partly from my own panels and partly from (new) renewable sources like wind (no old hydro).

      That there are others that use the same grid to transport their shitty coal power to their customers is not my fault, Just as I am not a criminal for using the same highways as drug runners and bank robbers.

      • Bob_Wallace

        ” same highways”

        Nice analogy. I suspect that will come in useful….

      • like that 😀

    • Null66

      Since it takes 1/2 as much electricity to refine and deliver gas as it does to run an equivalent vehicle, your gas car burns coal too.

      • DecksUpMySleeve

        Aware, but my Prius also doesn’t require the manufacturing of a 5,000 lb car to start doing the environment favors.

        • Bob_Wallace

          How long after 2010 did it take before the fuel you used wiped out that head start?

        • James Haskins

          You can purchase a used Leaf for around $10k. Solar for another $10-15k depending on need. AND plenty left over (hypothetically speaking, of course) to plant trees…but if you are in CA, I would opt for drought tolerant varieties of greenery.

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            Yeah, not bad advice. With my current way of life though it doesn’t quite work. In a few years though it will, and I plan to put 20-30 into solar, depending on my life at the time it may be an electric motorcycle. There’s a few variable in my current which force the laggy transition. Til then I’m green as is practical.

          • GCO

            Re solar, assuming you’re the US, you may want to keep in mind that the current 30% federal tax credit expires end 2016 (if I’m not mistaken; someone please chime in otherwise).

            Not that there would be anything wrong installing PV in 2017, it’d still be a great move IMHO, but it might be financially beneficial to rush things a little.

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            Noted.

          • neroden

            The electric motorcycles are getting awesomer and awesomer (particularly the ones from Zero). I’m a little too safety-conscious to ride a motorcycle, though.

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            It would be in the case of living in a scarcely populated area. I wouldn’t ride one in a city, the world’s best motorcyclist isn’t safe with all the distracted driving these days.

          • neroden

            I see a hell of a lot of distracted, dangerous, and even drunk driving on rural roads, unfortunately. We need better driver licensing, because the sort of reckless stuff I’m seeing is ridiculous.

          • DecksUpMySleeve

            Strangely I feel like psychology and philosophy being required education in youth might deter both aggressive and distracted driving, within the proper consideration of others and awareness of self-restraint.

    • Robert Engle

      How much coal does it take to turn oil into gas?

      • Bob_Wallace

        I ran the numbers on California refineries and found about 3.7 kWh of energy used for every gallon of oil refined. (That would drive an EV about 12 miles.)

        It’s hard to tell how much is coal. There some coal and some coke used directly by refineries and they also purchase electricity and steam from outside sources which could come from coal.

        • DecksUpMySleeve

          Not to even attach myself to this redundant string of comments(Null66 touched on the point presently as had 1000 ev comment prior..)but ~.296Lbs per 3.7kWh..

    • neroden

      From the EIA:

      “Major energy sources and percent share of total U.S. electricity generation in 2014:

      Coal = 39%
      Natural gas = 27%
      Nuclear = 19%
      Hydropower = 6%
      Other renewables = 7%
      Biomass = 1.7%
      Geothermal = 0.4%
      Solar = 0.4%
      Wind = 4.4%
      Petroleum = 1%
      Other gases < 1%"

      Other Renewables == non-hydro renewables total.

      The grid is already 13% renewable, plus 19% nuclear. That's 31% low-carbon. Coal is down to 39% and dropping.

      It's worth noting that rooftop solar isn't included in these totals, because it shows up as "demand reduction" in the utility company statistics.

      Solar is growing exponentially, doubling every three years or so.

      And demand is dropping due to stuff like LEDs. I power my car with the electricity saved by switching from incandescent lighting to LEDs, which I did around the same time.

      As demand drops, coal plants get retired. (Occasionally nuclear plants get retired.)

      • DecksUpMySleeve

        Displacement is not being part of the solution, and you have to be able to understand the whole of the grid eclectically to comprehend my point, at which time you wouldn’t attempt to correct me.

        • neroden

          If you understood the whole of the grid electrically (which I do), you wouldn’t attempt to correct me.

      • Bob_Wallace

        ” I power my car with the electricity saved by switching from incandescent lighting to LEDs”

        That’s an interesting talking point. Do you mean 100% or partially? Can you present the math? If you are really covering 100% of your ‘gas avoidance’ I think we could do something with that.

        “How I bought some LEDs and told gasoline stations to kiss off.”

  • Ronald Brakels

    It’s a very good point. Soon electric taxis will be common as they cross the cheaper to operate gasoline taxis rubicon and then a huge number of people will be exposed to the electric car experience and won’t want to go back. People will discover that it’s possible to easily nap or concentrate on work or study while a car passenger. People will specifically request electric taxis which will push internal combustion engine cars out of taxi work even sooner and when it comes to purchasing their own cars they’ll want electric.

    Personally I’m working to hasten the transition to electricity here in Australia by developing an electric guitar that shoots lightning bolts instead of flame for our doof warriors.

    • Kyle Field

      taxis and mail delivery vehicles…and UPS/FedEx delivery vehicles…and around town delivery vehicles… 😀 Lots of great use cases for EVs just waiting to be tapped!

    • NRG4All

      I once asked a mailman who was delivering in a residential area how many miles per day did he drive the USPS vehicle. He said, eight. At some point the Post Office will see the advantage as EVs get less expensive.

      • Greg Hudson

        Many posties here in Australia now ride electric bicycles. Slowly weaning off Honda 50cc 2 strokes.

      • neroden

        There’s now several companies offering conversion kits (whole drivetrains) for small trucks. I think this is because most truck body styles have fairly small production runs — the electric drivetrain companies can’t profitably set up their own body lines, due to not enough volume. But they can offer a drivetrain which can go into trucks with any number of body styles.

        I hope it catches on with places like USPS, UPS, FedEx.

    • Greg Hudson

      The latest Mad Max tried that guitar idea and failed – probably because they had to shoot it in Sth Africa instead of Australia 🙁

      • Ronald Brakels

        Damn that rain turning the desert around Broken Hill into fields of wild flowers that didn’t quite set the right tone for a Mad Max film. And I suppose Namibia found the foreign exchange useful, although their GDP per capita has more than tripled over the past 13 years so they’re doing quite well even without Australians tearing up their desert.

    • neroden

      For taxis and limos it’s already, consistently, cheaper to operate electric. Several limo companies in Chicago and elsewhere figured this out.

      • Ronald Brakels

        That doesn’t seem to be quite the case here in Australia, although electric taxis here need to beat priuses and LPG powered vehicles rather than standard gasoline vehicles. Higher cost of capital and perhaps the highest pretax electricity prices in the world also don’t help. We do have an incentive against using oil in the form of our fuel excise, but our guzzeline is still almost the cheapest in the developed world. (But not US cheap, that’s just crazy.) In the OECD only Canada, the US, and Mexico got Australia beat on low gasoline prices.

        • neroden

          Yeah, you’ve got some funny stuff going on in the electricity market in Australia, with exceptionally expensive grid electricity.

          The result is that installing solar panels in Australia is pretty much a no-brainer, however, and even solar + batteries can be cheaper than the grid already! It’s going to be interesting watching this play out…

          • Ronald Brakels

            Once we can get our hands on Tesla Powerwalls they will more than pay for themselves for many Australian households. Unfortunately, people who would rather cause deaths than inconvenience fossil fuel generation are working hard to stymie solar in Australia. People in Queensland, the “Sunshine State” are now particularly limited in how much rooftop solar they can install and how much solar electricity they can export in the name of grid stability, but oddly enough nothing else that could potentially affect grid stability such as giant air conditoner units are similarly affected. And other odd thing is that South Australia which has much more rooftop solar per capita doesn’t have problems with stability. And also oddly enough South Australia has no coal export industry and its one small brown coal mine will close in 6 months to three years time compared to dozens in Queensland. And ee also have no state own coal power stations and no quasi-goverment Stanwell Corp to run government owned power stations where the vice presidents alone get paid $8 million a year or 20 times as much as our Prime Minister. Funny that.

          • neroden

            Yeah. Funny. 🙁

  • MarTams

    We can’t afford a Tesla and even if we could via tight budget, we are won’t buy a Tesla. It cannot be justified. However, the Volt made me convinced not to go back to regular ICE cars, at just about a third of Tesla’s price while still maintaining complete freedom to go anywhere and not constrained by locations of charging stations.

    And of course, with compliments to the Colt from our wealthy friend who bought a Tesla Model S:
    http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?181449-Compliments-to-Chevy-Volt-from-a-Tesla-and-Volt-owner

    • Steve Grinwis

      The Volt is an absolute engineering Tour-De-Force, to be sure. Great car, bar none. Though to be fair, it’s not competing with the Tesla at all. Very different markets.

      • Kyle Field

        It doesn’t compete on price point but it’s the same consumer. can’t afford the long range EV? the volt is the next best thing if you regularly travel more than ~150mi/day…

        • GCO

          Actually, for trips over 150 miles, a Prius (plug-in or not) would use less gas (and obviously less electricity) than a Volt.

          Below that, an i3 would be best, but it’s more expensive too.

          The Volt probably offers the best compromise for someone who alternates between somewhat short (<40 miles) and long trips though.

          • TedKidd

            That’s not really meaningful to anybody but the unicorn that drives over 150 miles most every day.

            EVTV summarized a recent study, the average Volt drives just under 12k per year, over 9 k on electric.

            The average Leaf drives about 9500.

  • Republic

    It’s like going from a smartphone back to a flip phone. With buttons!

    • I often use this analogy.

    • Bah!

      I like my flip phone.

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