Bosch: 50 kWh Battery, Just 190 Kilograms

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Originally published on EV Obsession.

The German company Bosch is apparently aiming to, over the coming years, create a 50 kilowatt-hour (kWh) battery for use in electric vehicles that only weighs 190 kilograms, based on recent comments made by a company researcher.

Considering the amount of money that the company is currently pumping into related research — €400 million ($455 million) a year is being put into “electro-mobility” — that goal isn’t exactly surprising, but would be quite a game changer nonetheless.


As we’ve reported previously, Bosch is currently predicting that roughly 15% of all new vehicles sold just a decade from now will have an electric power train — so, unsurprisingly, the company is really pushing to position itself to take advantage of this predicted growth. As part of that, back in August, it was revealed that Bosch acquired promising solid-state battery startup Seeo. It seems that acquisition is turning out well for the company… though, we can’t really know if that is related to this week’s news.

Green Car Congress provides more on the news:

Dr Thorsten Ochs, head of battery technology R&D at the new Bosch research campus in Renningen, says that to achieve widespread acceptance of electromobility, mid-sized vehicles will need to have 50 kilowatt hours of usable energy. With conventional lead batteries, this would mean increasing the weight of the battery to 1.9 metric tons, even without wiring and the holder, he notes. Today’s lithium-ion batteries are superior in this respect, storing more than three times the amount of energy per kilogram.

At a weight of 230 kilograms, the battery of a modern-day electric car provides approximately 18 to 30 kilowatt hours. But to achieve the desired 50 kilowatt hours, a battery weighing 380 to 600 kilograms would be necessary. Dr Ochs’ goal is to pack 50 kilowatt hours into 190 kilograms. In addition, the researchers are looking to significantly shorten the time a car needs to recharge. “Our new batteries should be capable of being loaded to 75% in less than 15 minutes,” Ochs says.

According to Ochs, simply improving lithium technology will be enough to achieve these goals. The utilization of lithium in the anode, rather than graphite, would for instance make it possible to greatly increase storage capacity, reportedly. Many other options for improvement exist as well, of course.

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James Ayre

James Ayre's background is predominantly in geopolitics and history, but he has an obsessive interest in pretty much everything. After an early life spent in the Imperial Free City of Dortmund, James followed the river Ruhr to Cofbuokheim, where he attended the University of Astnide. And where he also briefly considered entering the coal mining business. He currently writes for a living, on a broad variety of subjects, ranging from science, to politics, to military history, to renewable energy.

James Ayre has 4830 posts and counting. See all posts by James Ayre

78 thoughts on “Bosch: 50 kWh Battery, Just 190 Kilograms

  • Be sure to check the software that measures the battery capacity. 😉

  • as was mentioned, battery technology is already good enough, there is no need for Bosch’s unproven and undeveloped “miracle battery” that has about the same energy density as in Tesla battery.

    Besides 50 kWh is not enough for electric cars. capacity must be closer to 100 kWh.

    My advice for Bosch is that if you are anyway serious on electric transportation, then make an electric car. Preferably by yourself or together with new start-up, because established car companies cannot make the transition to electric transportation without bankrupting the company. Too much stranded assets that introducing compelling electric cars would be suicidal.

    • “Bosch is currently predicting that roughly 15% of all new vehicles sold just a decade from now will have an electric power train.”

      They do not have a clue how fast this will change. My guess is closer to 90% by 2025.

      • Thank you. I, too, thought that the 15% figure must have come from a source with no earthly idea about what is happening in EV and battery technology.

      • I hope you’re right, but the stubbornness of people makes me worried… ICE lovers are scared of change, and aren’t going to want to buy electric 🙁

        • I agree. Also, let’s not forget that the fossil fuel companies will not go down without a fight. With as many climate change deniers out there (mostly Republican), all the oil companies need to do is to keep lowering the cost of gas. Many of the wells have already recovered their sunk costs so the only cost is the cost of refining and transporting. To the climate deniers they will choose the lowest cost in whatever market segment they are considering. Thus, the real deciding factor may be when EVs can be produced at a lower cost than an ICE machine, which I think is very possible, but at sometime in the future. For the sake of the planet, I hope not too distant. Thus, a 15% figure 10 years out may not be too far off. However, looking out further there may be a stampede.

      • I’m afraid not. That’s a heck of a change to make in just 10 years.
        Just reaching Bosch’s estimate would be impressive; exceeding it by any significant margin would be astounding.
        Of course, that’s assuming stepwise refinement & improvements in presently available tech; if the long-sought miracle battery becomes available, all bets are off.

        • A decade from now 2025. Here’s my “highly likely” guesstimation of how things will be by 2025. Probably before 2025.

          Starting sometime between 2020 and 2025 when you walk into a car dealer’s showroom (or shop on the manufacturer’s web site) you’ll be able to buy a 202x Ford/Nissan/whatever four door sedan with a gas engine for $25k. Or you can buy the exact same car with a 200+ mile range battery system for a thousand or two less.

          The same will be true up the quality ladder.

          Most buyers will know that EVs are much cheaper to drive per mile. Have fewer maintenance needs. Don’t need to be taken to a filling station every week or so. Are nicer to ride in. And that there are ample rapid charging stations so they can drive an EV conveniently anywhere the roads go.

          Now, assuming I’m guessing correctly, why would less than 15% of all new car purchasers pick the gasmobile?

          I think when we hit purchase price parity between ICEVs and ~200 mile range EVs there will be a very rapid market shift. That is what happens when a new technology takes over from old technologies.

          • Who’s going to be promoting these masses of EVs?
            The same dealers who’d give up a testicle to strangle Elon in his sleep?
            They don’t make much money on pure sales so what’s their incentive?

          • I’m thinking customer demand will be the driver.

            If you were thinking about getting a new car and you knew that EVs cost less to purchase and drive and offered a better driving experience wouldn’t you seek out a dealer who would sell you an EV?

            Actually, I think more and more of us will be buying on line through non-dealerships like Costco. I think the old dealership built on parts and repairs will disappear.

            I recall a time one bought their desktop from a business that could work on computers and even earlier their TVs from sellers who did TV repair. No more. We buy online from NewEgg and Amazon or haul it out of Costco (wherever).

            Dealers may become showrooms for new cars and sellers of used cars. Parts and repairs may be only tiny parts of their business.

            And as EVs become larger sellers car manufacturers will start advertising heavily in order to sell as many as possible. That’s not happening yet.

          • Bob, I think your first statement is right on the money. However, to suggest that parts and service will “go away” are just not true. Anything that “goes round an round or up an down” will need service.
            All that being said, the business model will have to be adjusted substantially, as the vehicles built around electric tech will have much less need for parts and service. But they will still need both. They will still require brake service, bodywork, etc.

          • Agreed. There will be suspension repairs. Half as many brake rebuilds. But all the engine, cooling, fuel, exhaust stuff disappears. The problems should largely self-diagnose. You’ll drive in and the car will have pre-ordered the parts it needs.

            Bodywork may decrease to shopping cart dings and falling tree damage.

            The big thing is that dealers will no longer sell for small profit and plan on making their real money on parts and repair.

            It’s going to be interesting.

          • Estimates place expected new car demand at 120 million in 2025. I think 8% (9.6 million electric cars) is a more likely number because……

            15% of 120 million is 18 million cars

            90% of 120 million is 108 million cars as per Mike.

            These cars need batteries. I’m guessing production will require new factories at a rate of:

            2 giga-factories for each 1 million cars…….
            36 giga-factories for 18 million cars……
            216 giga-factories for 108 million cars.

            Don’t forget the demand for storage batteries (like Tesla’s Power Wall) will be huge.

            It might be possible to build 36 for the 15%, but impossible to build 216 giga-factories for the 90% figure by 2025.
            To much to soon.

            That’s just for batteries.

            Now you have to design and engineer the cars. It took Tesla 12 years from scratch to produce the Model X and if lucky 2 to 3 more years to produce the Model 3.

            Right now Ford & GM and the rest are engineering the new 2020 ICE Vehicles. That’s to big of an investment to just drop and switch to pure electric.

            By 2020 almost all car companies could have 2 or 3 pure Electric models for sale.
            But collectively building 18 million world wide in the year 2025 could be a stretch.

            That’s just my 30 second guess. Somebody smarter than me (Bob) needs to offer a better estimate.



            Share ›

          • 36 ‘gigafactories’ by 2025 seems possible to me in terms of building 36 very large buildings across several companies. Labor and materials would not be a problem. Building 2x that many seems doable.

            At least we could build that number once committed and rolling. I don’t think we’ll get committed that fast.

            Tesla is shooting for 500,000 per year by 2020. Starting from about 100,000 per year in 2017. I don’t think most other cars will start moving until it’s very clear that there’s a strong market for Tesla’s 500k per year. Hopefully GM will be pumping out 200k or so by then each year. Nissan may have increased their range and brought their price down, they my be doing a few 100 k.

            2020. Three or four western car makers are pumping out something over a million EVs a year. Grabbing about 2% of the market and demand is growing. If we get there then I think everyone else comes with their ‘for real’ EV offering. Then we start building battery factories in large volume.

            By 2025 we’ll have 25 years to get rid of ICEVs if we’re still shooting for the 0% FF by 2050. We’d have to add enough battery plants per year to furnish batteries for 2 million new EVs. 4 gigafactories a year.

            That’s the slow route to 0%/2050.

            I suspect we’ll go faster simply due to buyer demand. Somewhere between 4 and 36 is what I’m predicting. ;o)

        • Tesla, a new company you might have heard of, has a much better than 15% market share in the over USD$80K market. They will be shipping a very competitive product in the USD$40K range by 2020, at a rate of about 150,000 per year. I expect the prices will continue to drop with the reduction in battery prices, and the second Tesla Gigafactory will be under construction by then as well.

          • Here’s how Tesla is doing in Germany….

          • Is that for real? That’s impressive. Most countries tend to be very loyal to the domestic automakers and the Germans make so many very good cars.
            I did hear JB Straubel say very recently that Europe has surpassed North Am in sales.

          • Tesla just opened a second assembly plant in Holland.

          • for me that looks like Norwegian sales chart.

          • I doubt Norwegians are purchasing that many S-class Mercs in just 3 fiscal quarters.

          • I keep a very close eye on what Tesla is doing but even if they reach Musk’s target of 500,000 vehicles by 2020, that’s still only 8% of annual US sales for passenger vehicles – and they would have sold ZERO overseas.

          • I presume that one or two other companies will also share the market. 🙂

            Musk has stated that his intent was to kick-start the market, and originally had no intent of dominating it.

          • It’s becoming obvious that multiple car manufacturers see that cars are going electric. They are saying so publicly.

            If Tesla and GM show 200 mile range EVs priced around $35k next year that will seal the deal. I suspect most manufacturers are planning on large scale EV manufacturing by 2020.

            If the market prefers EVs (which I assume will happen) we should see very large changeover in most or all companies as they cut ICEV production and devote more assembly lines to EVs.

            If Tesla hits 500,000 EVs per year by 2020 I wouldn’t be against them hitting 2 million by 2025. These guys do not hold back.

          • Tesla is demonstrating that one can build a battery plant in a couple of years. There’s no reason why several large battery plants can’t be built at the same time.

            It only takes a few weeks to transform an assembly line from one model to another. Probably faster in these days of robotic manufacturing.

            Look how quickly other car companies got into the minivan business after the first one was introduced. Same for SUVs. See market – go there.

          • Just a quick clarification. Tesla is targeting a $35K car with 200+ miles of range in 2017. By 2020, their projected output is 500,000 cars per year.

          • Sorry, I was being very cautious in my estimations. I do think that Tesla and others will have USD$25K models available by 2025, which will eliminate the ICE market.

          • I hope so (regarding the 2025 date)! It will be a human tragedy if there isn’t a huge migration to BEVs by 2025.

      • I suspect this argument is a ‘chicken and egg’ type of thing. Maybe 15% as things stand today, but should batteries such as this come to fruition, such improvements could make EVs that much more appealing to a much wider market.

      • I agree 15% lacks vision. Look at the projections for solar, constantly adjusted upwards. Another thing is that many supercar manufacturers releasing super EVs will add to the perception of EV coolness. Every new ordinary model will add to the traction, more acceptance, more choice, more competition. Battery prices going down, scale going up, less complexity: soon EV will be cheaper to manufacture than ICE. Add to that the Paris and future carbon agreements that necessitate action, like carbon pricing etc and the negative sentiment around exhaust fumes. I think EV growth will soon be supply limited.

      • Estimates place expected new car demand at 120 million in 2025. I think 8% (9.6 million electric cars) is more likely because……

        15% of 120 million is 18 million cars

        90% of 120 million is 108 million cars .

        These cars need batteries. I’m guessing production will require new factories at a rate of:

        2 giga-factories for each 1 million cars 36 giga-factories for 18 million cars 216 giga-factories for 108 million cars.

        Don’t forget the demand for storage batteries (like Tesla’s Power Wall) will be huge.

        It might be possible to build 36 for the 15%, but impossible to build 216 giga-factories for the 90% figure by 2025.
        To much to soon.

        That’s just my 30 second guess. Somebody smarter than me needs to offer a better estimate. Back to you mike.

        • Any idea what the most rapid industrial buildup (outside of war efforts) has been in the US or globally?

          We produced a Liberty Ship per day during WWII. Wonder now many Liberty Ships in a gigafactory?

          How fast did China build up its manufacturing capability?

          Hard to answer questions. They might have been answered somewhere. But it would be nice to see what we’ve been able to do in the past when demand for a new product boomed.

          Start 22 Gigafactories per year for a decade. Spread over 44 countries. I’m not suggesting demand exists to move them that fast, just that it might be possible.

          Perhaps calculate the square footage of the Gigafactory and compare to the square footage of factory space built each year.

    • 50kWh may be ok for small city cars if the charging is not free and is rapid. Say, 200kW.

      • The upcoming Tesla Mod3 and GM Bolt are expected to have solid 200 mile ranges using 50 kWh battery packs. The Tesla S60, which is a larger car, had a 204 EPA range with a 60 kWh battery pack.

        • How is Tesla going to get that kind of range out of 50 kWh if they’re not using aluminum for the Model 3?

          • A first generation Nissan leaf gets 84 miles on a 24kWh pack. Doing the math, that’s 3.5 miles of range per kWh of battery capacity. Multiply this times 50kWh and they’re at 175 miles. Throw in some efficiency improvements and the vehicle is at a 200 mile range using steel. This shouldn’t be a stretch to achieve at all. I’m expecting a little higher range on 50kWh of battery capacity.

          • How much more can you improve a Leaf? Or without making it look freakish?
            Also, a Leaf is quite underpowered compared to anything Tesla makes and while, unlike some, I don’t expect the Model 3 to be close to the Model S in performance, it’s not at all likely that Tesla is going to make an all-electric Prius.

          • You can improve aerodynamics and continue to move to higher capacity batteries as they come to market.

            And it may be time for Nissan to redesign the Leaf from the pavement up as an EV. Go to a flat pack battery like Tesla uses.

          • I have a 2015 Egolf and average 4.5 miles per KWH

          • Do you have to work hard to get that sort of performance? Do you drive in very EV friendly conditions? The EPA says 3.5 miles per kWh for the e-Golf.

          • At what average speed?

          • they might use carbon fiber for Model 3.

          • Where would they get so much affordably and who’s going to make the parts?
            If the Model 3 is a compelling car & comes in at the expected price, Tesla could reasonably expect 50,000+ reservations. That’s a lot of CF or CFRP.

          • Good question. But the real problem is the R&D side. It will probably take more time. The carbon fiber factory itself can be put together in mere months or at most in one year. Also this carbon fiber must be produced as joint venture with BMW because without BMW, Tesla probably does not have sufficien knowhow to produce affordable enough carbon fiber.

            Therefore, technology could allow Model 3 as a carbon fiber framed, but probably knowhow and markets are too slow.

          • If Tesla is going to meet that 2 yr-from-now target for the Model 3, trying to make a brand-new car with significant carbon fiber for $35k seems like a non-starter.
            I suspect they’ll save that for the next-gen Roadster that’s suggested for 2019 or later – sticking to their strategy of starting on the high-end.
            Between designing and prototyping the Model 3, ramping up the Model X, completing the Gigafactory, developing Autopilot, manufacturing PowerWalls & PowerPacks and keeping the biz afloat, that’s quite enough.

          • Remember that Tesla has enormous financing potential. Its market capitalization is about one third that of Volkswagen and therefore it means that Tesla can invest, if necesary, like any of the large car manufacturers.

            Tesla is not capital limited. If necessary, it can easily invest 10 billion dollars on carbon fiber factory if it decides that carbon fiber technology is mature enough for mass production.

            The problem is that carbon fiber tech is probably not mature enough for mass produced vehicles. And we can express serious doubts if it is really sustanable even for BMW to produce i3 from carbon fiber. After all, BMW has not pushed its sales too much. This might mean that it is non-profitable car, but BMW just thinks that they can solve the mass production problems of CF.

            But as you said, Tesla probably saves carbon fiber R&D for next gen Roadster.

          • I’m concerned at the rate they’re adding debt. The game they’re in is capital-intensive and they’re doing as much as every other major player combined to improve the EV ecosystem but a sudden shift in the markets could break them.
            I wonder if they could spike an uptick in sales next year with a price reduction. The price diff between the S70 and the S85 is too broad – the only differences between them is 0.1s 0-60mph and 15 kWh – for $10,000??
            So all you’re really getting is a larger battery pack at $666 / kWh??

            I’ve said before that Tesla should eliminate the single-motor variants.
            I’ll expand on that by saying they should make the AWD adjustable – maybe have a Sport+ mode where you can turn it off (some folks really, really, really love RWD), dump both the S70 & the S85, drop the price on the S70D & S85D by $2500 – $5000 and watch the orders roll in.

            They don’t need to do this right away and can probably wait until some time after the Model 3 reveal and after getting the Model X backlog under control.

    • Bosch are a large and capable company, with the excellent German system of education and training in science and technology behind them. They should be able to give LG, BYD and Panasonic a run for their money in battery innovation.

      • “Should be able” and “will do” are two different things. I agree, Bosch can move Electric Vehicle adoption forward. I worry Bosch’s projections (roughly 15% of all new vehicles sold just a decade) reflect their sense of urgency.

    • 100kWh is even bigger than Tesla is putting on any of its cars. For those that have the means, cars with 70 – 90 kWh packs are selling like hotcakes. The quick charging infrastructure fits in very well even for long road trips where you want to stop after 3 – 4 hours and charge up while you take a break.

      While the people who can drop $100k+ on a top-end Tesla can afford the convenience this size pack offers, the 99% of the rest of us aren’t so lucky. As the pack gets bigger, the cost goes up. And even if batteries get a lot cheaper, the cost differential between a 50kWh pack and a 100kWh pack will always be around 100%. So with a 100kWh pack, people would lug around a lot more batteries than they would normally use, making their cars heavier and eating up interior space, to solve a problem that quick charging has already solved with packs smaller than 100kWh.

    • **Besides 50 kWh is not enough for electric cars. capacity must be closer to 100 kWh**
      Use two of them.

    • Jouni,
      Bosch already makes an electric car- it’s calles the Fiat 500e and i happen to be leasing one. The entire drivetrain is manufactured by Bosch. About the only part of the car that doesn’t have a Bosch logo on it is the Fiat emblem on the back. That car has a range of 87 miles ( really closer to 100 in real driving) with a 600+ lb 24kwh battery. If Bosch were to come out with 50kwh battery that weighed 200 lbs less, the range of that car would be 200 miles. That would be more than sufficient range for me and most people. Who commutes more than 200 miles in a day? Do we really need a 400 mile range in a commuter car? Yes i could possibly see A luxury market for 400 mile range electric vehicles, but for most of us that just want to drive to work and back, 200 miles is more than sufficient.

      • Do you really need a commuter car for your second car? You could as well take a bus.

        • Taking a bus 32 miles each way in Los Angeles county is not really a viable option. And I still don’t see the value to the 98% of the population that drive less than 100 miles a day to owning an electric car with a range of 400+ miles. The reason I would want a gasoline car with that kind of range is the same as most people- I hate filling up at a gas station and would like to do it as few times as necessary in a month. That argument doesn’t hold true with an electric car- I love filling up at home and waking up with a full tank. I drive 150 miles in a day maybe 6 times a year- mainly to Disneyland. (Which happens to have plenty of charging stations) I might drive over 200 miles in a day once every 4 years. If I had a range of 200 miles and fast chargers located conveniently near a Starbucks or Whole Foolds every 20 miles along the way I doubt would ever miss owning a gas powered vehicle.

          • the problem is that you can have 50 % faster charging for 300 mile car than for 200 miles. That is because it takes about 30 minutes to charge battery cells to 80 %, but as 300 mile car has 50 % more cells, therefore in 30 minutes you can add 240 miles for 300 mile car and 160 miles for 200 mile car and only 80 miles for 100 mile car.

            Therefore, if you want faster charging you also need longer practical range. If you are sure that you are good with 150 mile range, then you can buy 300 mile car, but you can keep the charge level between 25 % and 75 %. This gives you 150 miles practical range, while maximizes the battery longevity. 300 mile battery lasts at least twice as long as 150 mile battery if both batteries has usable range limited to 150 miles.

          • ” I might drive over 200 miles in a day once every 4 years.”

            So pay for the extra 100 miles of batteries and haul them around for 3 years and 364 days between uses?

          • that 100 miles of extra batteries probably extends the total lifespan of battery quite considerably, perhaps several years. Also if that extra 100 miles of range is not used for driving, it is possible to sell grid balancing services for smart grid. Therefore it is probably that it is possible to mostly save that extra 100 miles of batteries with cheaper electricity bills.

            Therefore, if extra range is not used for driving, it is probably better to software-limit the capacity of batteries than to actually have smaller battery.

          • Exactly! Why stop there, why not lug around an extra 300 miles of batteries I’ll never use? It’s not like starting and stopping an extra ton of batteries a few hundred times a day would lower my efficiency or cost more to drive, right? We could just sell those models to all the bright individuals I see driving by themselves to work every day in their Suburban’s and Hummers….

          • I can imagine a time later on when capacity is greatly improved we might see EVs designed with some empty space fore and aft of the regular battery pack where some additional batteries could be installed for long trips.


            Turn a 200 mile EV into a 500 mile EV in a couple of minutes. Offload them at the end of the day and let someone else use them until it’s time to return home, then rent again.

          • I would love to be able to tell the car to only charge to 80% capacity. However I have yet to see a BEV that offers this feature. And no, i do not wish to wake up at 4am to check the charging status and manually tell it to stop charging. I personally don’t understand the obsession with faster charging. I knew when I leased the 500e that it did not have fast charging capability, and it simply was not an issue. The only time I will ever drive it 70 miles one way is to an amusement park, where i will simply leave it plugged in for half the day till I drive home- where it will recharge in 3 hours overnight after 10pm. I don’t think that my use case is much different than 95% of the rest of the population.

            Yes I would like to see a 200 mile range, and I will be looking at range when I trade in in 3 years. But if at that time i see a nice BEV with 160 mile range and no fast charging for 25,000 and the same or similar vehicle offered with 280 mile range and fast charging for 35,000, I will have no problem choosing the cheaper one.

  • Is it the first post today about another promising battery technology? If I dont read two of them everyday I start to feel withdrawal symptoms

    • It’s hard not to be cynical about all of these claims. But just remember, it ain’t but one of them has to be true to turn the world on it’s ear.

  • If they plan to sell it at the same price per kWh as their pedelec batteries, then the battery pack alone will cost more than a complete Model S. Currently it sells for more than 1500$/kWh…

  • About 1 MJ per kg.

  • ” With conventional lead batteries, this would mean increasing the weight of the battery to 1.9 metric tons,”

    Ummmm. Why would someone compare their EV battery against lead-acid batteries? This isn’t 1915.

    Goal 190 kg for 50 kWh. 3.8 kg/kWh. Tesla 1300 lbs./590 kg or about 7 kg per kWh. That’s a decent weight savings.

    “Our new batteries should be capable of being loaded to 75% in less than 15 minutes,”

    37.5 kWh in < 15 min. That's faster than Tesla at 26.6 kWh in 15 minutes.

    Where's the cycle life?

    • I assume it is a “solid-state” lithium battery. But little data to back that up.

  • @jounivalkonen:disqus You are correct in your opinion, that 50kWh are not enough. To fulfill the “needs” of gasoline car drivers, it seems that approximately 150 to 170 kWh are necessary.

    An average car has a fuel tank, filled with approx. 55 l gasoline. This means a chemical energy of about 460kWh. Keeping in mind the fact, that a combustion engine runs on a degree of efficiency of about 30%, about 165 kWh battery capacity are necessary (assumption: the EV’s efficiency is at about 95%)

    • Thomas, were you correct people would not be purchasing Teslas. There wouldn’t be enough range to allow them to give up their ICEVs.

      It doesn’t matter how much usable energy your car carries with it when full/charged. What matters is that you have enough range so that you don’t have to stop too often and for too long to get the next load.

      BTW, here’s how people in Germany are feeling about Teslas with 70 to 90 kWh in a larger car.

      • Bob, I think, you got me wrong. What I mean is that you need, in an EV, an amount of energy allowing you to drive as far as a gasoline driven car does. Only then, people will buy EVs in large amounts. For me, personally, an EV with a range of 500km is sufficient.

        But here in Germany, people with a diesel driven car can travel about 1000km without refueling. And they say “I will not buy an EV if it does not reach this range”.

        And therefore, a battery with about 160kWh would fullfil their needs. And in this respect, a lighter battery would be helpful to sell more EVs.

        If this happens, only the problem how fast the battery can be recharged has to be solved. But I think, tht this is not this easy.

        The best solution in my eyes is a changeable battery.

        • Thomas, how often do you use the full range of your gas tank? How many days a year do you drive 500km (300 miles) How many people do you think drive 1000km (600 miles) a day often?

          How much are you willing to pay for something you hardly ever use?

          In the US the average driving day is about 35 miles. Look at the graph below at how few driving days more than 150 miles. The number of 200 mile (320km) days will be lower. The number of 600 mile (1000km) days will be close to zero.

          A 160 kWh battery would be huge and cost a lot of money. Perhaps years from how batteries will have 3x more capacity but we have no way to predict that. And we don’t have those batteries today.

          Does that mean that today’s EVs aren’t usable? Hardly.

          One can easily drive a Tesla S all day and get to their destination almost as soon as someone driving and ICEV with a 400 mile (640km) range. You start with your batteries full, drive 230 out of your 265 mile range (leave a margin). Plug in and eat lunch. Thirty minutes later you can drive another 170 miles. Stop for another half hour and drive another 170 miles. Now you
          ve gone 570 miles (912km) while spending one hour charging.

          Driving an ICEV you’d have to refill once (10 to 15 minutes), eat a meal (20 to 30 minutes) and would probably take a pee/refreshment break (10 to 15 minutes). That’s 40 minutes to one hour. Not a lot of difference from driving an EV.

          Worst case, you carry your lunch in a bag, pee in a bottle, and stop at a gas station with an empty pump, 15 minutes.

          What do you pay for saving that 0 to 45 minutes? In the US cars average 25 mpg. So 22,8 gallons of fuel to drive 570 miles. At $3/gallon that’s $68.40 for fuel.

          With electricity you’ll need about 0.3 kWh per mile or 17.1 kWh. At $0.12/kWh (US average) that would cost $2.05.

          If you were driving over 500 miles (800km) frequently and your time was really valuable it might be worth $66 to arrive a half hour earlier. For most people saving the money would offset taking an afternoon break. Checking messages, bit of web surfing/game playing, walk taking, nap taking.

          Then there’s the rest of the year.

          13,000 miles 25 mpg $3/gallon gas = $1,560
          13,000 miles 50 mpg $3/gallon gas = $780

          !3,000 miles 0.3 kWh/mile $0.12/kWh = $468

          • I think you are misunderstanding me on purpose… 🙂

            1. I like EVs and think to buy a Tesla 3 when it is available.
            2. I cannot ignore the current drawbacks an EV has.

            It is no the question, that one do not need a car which is capable to cover 1000 km or more with one filling every day.

            But drivers in Germany are, for years, accustomed to that and it is very unlikely to convince them that they do not need it. I am travelling 690 km two times a week and it is very comfortable that I do not need to think about where the next Supercharger is.

            This is the reason why I say that for a wide and fast distribution of EVs it is necessary to increase the amount of stored energy.

            It is unlikely that the majority of drivers accept a stop every 250 or 300 km to charge the car. This is no problem for some people which drive for fun, but a big problem for people which have to visit customers. And there are lots of people in Germany which have to do this.

            But again, I like EVs, but I also see the current drawbacks.

          • I am not trying to misunderstand you.

            You now change the discussion. You drive 690km twice a week. (I’m switching to miles, it’s my metric). That’s 414 miles x 2 x 48 (?) weeks. And that’s just under 40,000 miles a year. I hope you understand how unusual you are, likely 2 standard deviations out from the US mean of 13,000 miles. Most US drivers probably don’t drive over 400 miles in a day more than four times a year.

            Driving that much, with European fuel costs, you probably would find it cheaper to drive a Tesla S right now.

            Go to this page and look down to the map. Look at where there are Superchargers today and where they will be in 2016. There’s a Europe map.

            There may not be a SC where you need it today, but the number will almost certainly keep growing. You could do your 414 miles with one half hour stop and perhaps another 10 minute charge.

            If batteries get down to $100/kWh why would you want to pay for and haul around an additional 110 kWh (160 – 50 for the Mod3) when a lunch time charge and short break (gotta make phone calls) would do the job?

            $100 x 110 kWh = $11,000 + more electricity to carry the weight in order to avoid charging during the day?

          • Bob, you forgot that we want to get rid of speed limits due to superior inherent safety of electric cars and for 200 km/h convenient cruising, it is required about 200 kWh battery pack.

          • What we need and what we might enjoy having are two different things. Right now 200 highway miles with the heater/AC on and an adequate number of rapid charging stations meet almost everyone’s needs.

            Later on, with extremely reliable autonomous driving cars, we might see much higher speed limits and battery packs that were good for three hours or more at those speeds. If we charge the batteries from renewable energy sources and have no wrecks, all will be well.

    • Thomas, you cannot compare electric cars to gasoline cars, because typically gasoline car is driven with half full tanks of gasoline, where as electric cars are starting roadtrips almost always with full charge.

      Besides, electric cars are far more convenient to charge than gasoline cars are to fill up. Therefore, it is not a problem to have a good 10 to 30 minute lunch, coffee or work break every 300 km of driving.

      However you are partially correct. We need 200 kWh battery packs, but not because ICE cars have large gasoline tanks, but because we want to get rid of speed limits, due to superiour safety of electric cars. And for convenient 200 km/h cruising speed, it is required about 200 kWh battery pack.

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