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Cars battery swap tesla

Published on October 1st, 2013 | by James Ayre

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Model S Buyback Program Could Generate ~$368 Million



Tesla’s unconventional Model S buyback program could generate around $368 million in revenue for the company by the year 2016, according to recent reports from Bloomberg.

Tesla’s finance plan — which was announced back in April and is backed by Wells Fargo — guarantees a resale value for the Model S equal to 50% of the base purchase price for the entry-level model and 43% for all other options after 36 months. What this means is that the company can retain a great deal of control over resale prices/value — and, in essence, it gives the company the chance to earn a second gross profit off of the same car.

Certainly sounds like it is a good deal for Tesla, and it seems to be yet another example of the company’s apparent disregard for industry standards and willingness to step out into new territory.

battery swap tesla

Image Credit: Tesla


Autoblog Green has more:

Good news, everyone. If we can manage set aside about $37,000 over the next couple of years, a Tesla Model S, a used one, will be ours. That’s one of the findings in a Bloomberg Industries study on Tesla’s financing, vehicle buyback and resale programs. As Bloomberg News reports, any additional financial obligation stemming from the pre-set buyback price and challenges from a lack of a dealer network may be offset by the fact that Tesla doesn’t have to work with dealerships that would take a cut of the resale.

Tesla’s predicted 2016 revenue and profit figures reflect the gains from about 10,000 vehicles being bought back from customers. Of course, a bunch of those folks may choose to hold onto their Model S EVs, dings and all, instead of selling them back to the automaker, but that speaks to the whole different subject of the Model S holding up better than expected and a customer base not willing to part with them.

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About the Author

James Ayre's background is predominantly in geopolitics and history, but he has an obsessive interest in pretty much everything. After an early life spent in the Imperial Free City of Dortmund, James followed the river Ruhr to Cofbuokheim, where he attended the University of Astnide. And where he also briefly considered entering the coal mining business. He currently writes for a living, on a broad variety of subjects, ranging from science, to politics, to military history, to renewable energy. You can follow his work on Google+.



  • Ivor O’Connor

    So if the base model costs $63,750 and instead you buy the P85 with a price tag of $83,570 after three years you would get:

    .5(63750) + .43(83570-63750)

    $31,785 + $8,600

    $40,385

    Or put another way 48% of what you paid initially. What happens after four years or five years? Is it always 48% or does it vary depending on how old the car is.

    48% is not good by the way. Tesla is basically saying you don’t have to worry about this car becoming a lemon. The car will probably be sold after three years for about 80% of it’s value. Tesla cars are built like no other cars on the market. Their chassis are so overbuilt to not only withstand impact but to also withstand the corrosive aging elements these cars will probably be on the roads, unless hit, in 100 years. People don’t realize this yet because most don’t understand the chemical properties of aluminum. Time will teach this concept.

    48% after three years basically is nothing. Normal beater cars typically sale at 58% after three years. See http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/how-fast-does-my-new-car-lose-value-infographic.html So really Tesla is just addressing the nay sayers. Kind of like saying we will give you free drinks at the bar, all the water is on us!

  • davidruggles

    IF there was any consensus on what a Model S would be worth in three years, the residual values could be insured.

    • davidruggles

      Tesla doesn’t have capital for car loans. So they use Wells Fargo, who
      takes the credit risk and makes the profit on the loan. They have
      allowed Tesla to guarantee to buy back the Model S at predetermined
      values after a specific term based on specific conditions. So Tesla is
      taking the residual risk. This is REAL risk. If the Model S turns out
      to NOT be worth what Tesla guaranteed, Tesla will get them all back and
      they will eat the losses. On the other hand, if they are worth more,
      Tesla won’t get any of them back, at least not for the guaranteed
      price.

      • Bob_Wallace

        What’s your problem here, David?

        Tesla is guaranteeing a minimum price for the cars when owners want to sell them.

        That’s an interesting business approach. Certainly there is some risk for Tesla, and for Wells Fargo if Tesla were to use a lot of the credit and then go bankrupt.

        Tesla has made a very interesting marketing play by shifting used vehicle value risk from the buyer back onto the company. I’m sure Tesla has thought this out.

        Even if the market moves much faster than they expect and they lose some money on their buy back/resell program they are likely to profit considerably by attracting many more first time buyers. People can pay the extra for a luxury car and be assured that the value will hold, come what may.

        Someone buying a Lexus or other luxury gasmobile does not enjoy the same advantage. If/when the market shifts from ICEVs to EVs some people are going to get holding the bag as their used luxury vehicles are going to depreciate much faster than they expected.

        • davidruggles

          Problem? What “problem do I have? It is what it is. Tesla’s guaranteed value program may be interesting, but it sure isn’t original. What is unusual is for a new company to get away with guaranteeing the value on an unproven product.If the market on the Model S tanks, it could take Tesla down. That sounds like a desperation move to me. It sounds like the desperation programs the traditional auto OEMs run when they need to keep the production line running. Yes, I’m sure Tesla has thought this out and knows if the market on the Model S tanks, they’ll get back all the ones they guaranteed. AND if they tank, Wells owns them. After all, the residuals aren’t insured.

          IF the market changes from ICEVs to EVs it won’t happen suddenly. And IF that happens, the Model S would also be rendered “yesterday’s technology.” This would have an adverse impact on their pre-owned values. Why? For that to happen EV range challenges would have to be rectified via newer technology.

          Don’t get me wrong. I’m rooting for Tesla. But I’ve been around to long not to see certain patterns develop.

          • Bob_Wallace

            Can you list the other car companies which have given their purchasers a guaranteed resale price?

            You think this sounds like a desperation move when Tesla is selling product as fast as they can move it out of the factory? Shouldn’t you look at this in context?

            It’s very likely that as soon as a ~ 200 mile range “affordable” (~25k) EV comes to market then there will be a rapid move away from ICEVs. The threshold for market shift is when someone can purchase an EV that can be driven all day with minimal recharging stops/time.

          • davidruggles

            Hyundai had such a program through Hyundai credit. The ALLY Bank ABC balloon financing has such an arrangement. And EVERY lender offering a lease or balloon option guarantees values at end of term.

            http://www.autoblog.com/2011/04/20/hyundai-launches-assurance-trade-in-value-guarantee/

          • Bob_Wallace

            Sounds like Hyundai did what Tesla is now doing. Creating a comfort level for buyers who might be concerned about resale value. Sounds smart to me.

            Does it bother you that Tesla used a good idea which another car company originated?

            Leases are not sales.

          • davidruggles

            RE: “The threshold for market shift is when someone can purchase an EV that
            can be driven all day with minimal recharging stops/time.”

            When and/or IF that happens, what would be the value of old technology EVs?

          • Bob_Wallace

            They would probably not be changed. Perhaps their value would increase.

            Don’t forget that there are many multi-vehicle households which could easily use a limited range EV as one of their cars. As we switch to EVs and people become more comfortable with driving electrics it’s possible that used limited range EVs will become more attractive choices.

          • davidruggles

            I’m not forgetting that there are many multi vehicle households. But any change will be gradual, not sudden.

            It is doubtful that new technology EVER makes old technology more valuable. That said, old tube amplifiers are suddenly the rage, but I don’t think that translates to vehicles if the new tech brings extended range over the old tech.

          • Bob_Wallace

            Technological shifts are actually quite rapid.

            The two major slide rule manufacturers shut down their plants two years after the first scientific calculator arrived on the market. Digital photography largely wiped out film in a decade. More examples below.

            Right now people are hesitant to buy EVs even when the limited range affordable ones like the LEAF would work very well for many households.

            Once people become more familiar with EVs, once they are widely accepted, someone looking for a used car will likely pay more for a used EV than for a used ICEV. We already see economic cars holding their value better than less efficient cars.

          • davidruggles

            And the IBM Selectric’s been done for a while. If you have confidence in your ability to predict values I can introduce you to the professioinals at ALG. But the REAL professionals hang out at RVI Group. Not only do they predict values, but they insure them. And they aren’t insuring the Model S residuals.

            I followed residual values for over 40 years as a market participant in leasing and in the wholesale channel. You’re making a judgement right now that economy cars are holding their value better. IF you follow these things you’ll find that there can be wild fluctuations. As the price of fuel drops, so does the value of econ vehicles. Would you care to look back at the values of the Prius since 2008? You would be shocked at the volatility. Making forward looking judgements is risky business. If the price of oil drops to $40./bbl, and gas is selling for $2.50., Tesla is in a bad position. Even at $3.50 recently, PRIUS languished on dealer lots until the price of fuel went back up.

            CAFE will force OEMs to heavily incentivize fuel sippers to avoid CAFE fines if they don’t achieve the benchmarks. Those incentives won’t help the values of used fuel sippers.

            RE: Auto computers – You don’t diagnose and replace these remotely. You can reprogram them, but if you’ve spent any time around car stores you would know that reprogramming is an issue. Let’s give the Model S some time before declaring it service and maintenance free.

          • davidruggles

            RE: “Immense”

            Here’s how residual guarantees work. When a car doesn’t achieve its guarantee, EVERYONE brings them back to be made whole. Virtually EVERYONE. That is IMMENSE. There is no reason to think that wouldn’t happen with Tesla.

            RE: “Props up current sales” sounds like concern trolling to me.”

            Why would they take such a risk if they had no need to keep sales up with production?

            Tesla is NOT building any new factories. They have hundreds of thousands of unused capacity in Fremont. There ARE re-engineering the Model S for the German market where sales have lagged.

          • Bob_Wallace

            Back off the all caps stuff, please. We do not shout on this site.

            Yes, there is a lot of spare space in the old Toyota factory in Fremont. Apparently Tesla has been in discussion about expanding into some of it.

            At the same time Tesla has been discussing new factories in Europe and Asia as well as a new assembly plant somewhere in the Southwest.

            They’ve already opened a small assembly plant in Tilburg, Netherlands.

            Sales have “lagged” in Germany? Tesla is in the process of installing superchargers all over the country. Doesn’t sound to me that Tesla has any German issues.

            Tesla is reconfiguring the S for the Autobahn.

          • davidruggles

            You post the way you want and I’ll do the same.

            Tesla doesn’t need to negotiate with anyone about Fremont. They own it.

            The Tilburg site as a reassembly center. The cars are built in Fremont, disassembled and shipped to Tilburg for reassembly.

            It is common knowledge that the Autobahn configuration is to address lagging sales in Germany.

            RE: “ICEVs don’t make it to 200k without piling up repair costs.”

            And you know that HOW?

          • Bob_Wallace

            No, David. You’ll comply with site rules or you will go away.

            Checking Wiki -

            On May 20, 2010, Tesla Motors and Toyota announced a partnership to work on electric vehicle development and collaborate on the “development of electric vehicles, parts, and production system and engineering support”. This included Tesla’s partial purchase of the former NUMMI site, mainly consisting of the factory building,[11] [12] for $42 million.

            Apparently Tesla owns the factory building, but not the entire site. Recently they purchased the test track so perhaps they now own the entire site. That is not clear.

            Tesla has an operation in Europe. If you need to call it a “reassembly” plant rather than an assembly plant in order to win an argument, or whatever it is that motivates you, then let’s call it a reassembly plant.
            Truthfully, David, I’m tired of dealing with you. I just don’t find your agenda either interesting or helpful in understanding the larger issues.
            Tesla is running their business in ways which you apparently do not agree. BFD. Tesla is producing a very widely admired product and you are not.

          • davidruggles

            If Tesla was able to keep the assembly line humming, why take the risk of offering guaranteed value?

          • Bob_Wallace

            Why not?

            Why not create the best car company in the world? The one that produces the best EVs, the safest cars, and the cars with the highest owner satisfaction? Tesla does things other companies do not.

            Will they win out in the end? Only time will determine that. So far the decisions they have made are quite impressive.

          • Bob_Wallace

            Ah, I think I’ve identified the bug you’ve got up your butt. A claim that Tesla sales are “lagging” in Germany because they sold fewer EVs than did lower price EV producers.

            “In some European countries – Iceland and Norway – the Tesla Model S is doing quite well. In others, according to the International Business Times, early indications are that interest in the world’s best-selling luxury EV are a bit muted.

            The numbers from IBT indicate that Tesla’s sales in Norway hit 801 in the first two months of availability. In Holland, Denmark and Germany it was just 531 – for all three. There were 348 sold in Holland and 85 in Denmark those first two months.

            That leaves 98 sold in Germany in those two months, quite a ways behind the country’s best-selling EVs. The Smart ED sold 146 units in Germany just in September, and even the Renault Zoe and the Nissan Leaf outsold the Model S that month. Those two EVs sold 57 and 55 units, respectively.”

            http://green.autoblog.com/2013/10/21/tesla-model-s-sales-in-germany-lag-behind-leaf-zoe-smart-ed/

            Should one be surprised that more moderate priced EVs were sold than were luxury models?

            Of course you ignore good sales in other European countries, which happen to be more EV ready.

            And you ignore the fact that US sales are fine, with first quarter sales exceeding predictions.

            “Tesla Motors announced today that sales of its Model S vehicle exceeded the target provided in the mid-February shareholder letter. As customers who note their Model S serial number this weekend will realize, vehicle deliveries (sales) exceeded 4,750 units vs. the 4,500 unit prior outlook.”

            http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/releases/tesla-model-s-sales-exceed-target

            And the fact that second quarter sales were strong. Stronger than predicted.

            ” For the quarter, Tesla reported 5,150 Model S
            electric sedan deliveries — which beat the automaker’s expectation of 4,500 deliveries.

            Also notable is that Tesla’s production rate increased 25 percent to almost 500 vehicles per week (up from 400 previously). Tesla sold 10,500Model S sedans in the first six months of 2013 and plans to reach a rate of 40,000 annually by late 2014.

            For the third quarter, Tesla expects to deliver slightly over 5,000
            Model S’ and a total of 21,000 worldwide for the whole year.”

            http://www.dailytech.com/Tesla+Motors+Posts+Surprise+Profit+Beats+Model+S+Sales+Goal+for+Second+Quarter/article33132.htm

            Sorry, David, subdued sales in one of several countries does not support your “fears” that Tesla is failing and had to take on great risk in order to keep their factory humming.

          • davidruggles

            Older limited range EVs COULD become attractive choices IF the price used is low enough. Besides, it is likely that advances and new tech would reduce prices on new EVs. That wouldn’t bode well for the pre-owned values. In fact, it would drive them down. This is why there is immense risk involved in guaranteeing values by Tesla. But the guaranteed value program props up current sales while deferring any losses down the road, allowing Tesla to crow about their margins.

          • Bob_Wallace

            Well, the world could come to an end as well. Making predictions of the future is a risky endeavor.

            There is some risk that Tesla is taking in guaranteeing a minimum price for their used EVs, but I suspect some very smart people have done the math.

            “Immense” seems a bit over the top.

            Tesla has plenty to crow about. They have produced a very desirable, groundbreaking car. They have built the safest car in the history of cars. They are selling cars as fast as they can manufacture them and are in the process of opening more factories.

            They are even being called on by major car manufacturers to solve the big boys’ EV problems.

            Tesla has done a number of interesting things beyond building a great, desirable car. They have done away with the PITA dealership model. They are in the process of creating a nationwide (and other country-wide) system of rapid charging stations. And they have given their customers peace of mind regarding resale value.

            “Props up current sales” sounds like concern trolling to me.

          • Ivor O’Connor

            The only improvements possible for EVs are better batteries and chargers. Not much can be done with the chassis, wheels, motors, or aerodynamics. So in eight years the energy density, extrapolating on the battery curve history has shown to best fit this technology, will double. So with the same form factor battery pack the Tesla will deliver close to 600 miles. Now smaller cars will get better mileage. New regulations not requiring extruding side mirrors will improve mileage by another 5%. Maybe better motors will improve things by another 5%. Maybe it will have four wheel drive so you are getting from 0 to 60 in 2.8 seconds instead of 4.3 seconds. Still though the fact will be your 10 year old Tesla will be getting you around for free except for wear and tear on the tires and windshield wipers. At 600 miles per charge. No reason to upgrade like on a normal car which self-destruct at the 10 year mark.

          • davidruggles

            I’m not as anxious to try to predict the future as you are. The average car on the road these days is about 11.5 years. So much for self destructing after 10.

            A lot more things go wrong with cars these days than wiper blades. The electronics are FAR from trouble free. Tesla has hopefully designed the Model S with the ability to be upgraded. Bottom line: After ten years, the current battery pack is shot, with degradation taking place from the get go. A current ICE runs to 200K with few if any problems. BUT new houses are being built with solar panels and recharging stations in the garage. My wife and I are looking at them now here in LV. About the time a consumer is living in a house with recharging capabilities, the temptation to try one out is immense. A neighbor just bought a Model S. It looks even better on the street than in the showroom. Even my wife, agnostic on vehicles normally, wants to go around the block for another look. She would NEVER even notice a VOLT or a Leaf. Hybrid? What’s that?
            A

          • Bob_Wallace

            You’re kind of monkeying around with your numbers, David.

            “A current ICE runs to 200K with few if any problems.” I don’t find that at all credible. If you make it to 200k without having to rebuild an engine or transmission that’s a rare thing. And there will be a lot of alternator/starter/fuel pump type repairs along the way.

            11.5 year average life x 13,000 average miles = 150k. Not that many cars are reaching 200k before they take a trip to the crusher.

          • davidruggles

            RE: “A current ICE runs to 200K with few if any problems.” I don’t find that at all credible. If you make it to 200k without having to rebuild an engine or transmission that’s a rare thing.”

            Facts on the ground. Its a common thing, not rare at all. It makes no difference if you believe it or not.

            RE: “11.5 year average life x 13,000 average miles = 150k. Not that many
            cars are reaching 200k before they take a trip to the crusher.”

            The AVERAGE car on the road is 11.5 years old. MANY cars reach 200K before their useful life ends. These aren’t my numbers. You can look them up. BTW, engines aren’t rebuilt these days, they are replaced with a used engine. Engine failure is unusual these days.

          • Bob_Wallace

            ICEVs don’t make it to 200k without piling up repair costs.

          • Ivor O’Connor

            ” So much for self destructing after 10.” Hardly negates what I said about a car self destructing after 10 years.

            “The electronics are FAR from trouble free.” Very true. I myself think the more electronics the more to go wrong.

            “After ten years, the current battery pack is shot, with degradation taking place from the get go.” Again very true. Or I think it true. Others may disagree. However I did say the packs would need upgrading and in 10 years we are likely to see packs that hold 190 kWh.

            ” A current ICE runs to 200K with few if any problems.” This is total BS. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

            Seems like these Model S’ are going to be a pain. Imagine the poor owner who gets their car keyed in the parking lot. Or bumped with a cart. Or all the other things. Wrapping up your persona around an Apple product was bad enough. Now normal common sense agnostics are getting infected with these Tesla cars. They are the future but people need to get a grip and hold on to reality.

  • davidruggles

    This program is NOT backed by Wells Fargo. They only take the credit risk. Tesla backs the program and takes all of the residual risk. They could lost $300 million as easily as they could make it. No one knows what the value of a used Tesla will be down the road. It is quite likely that a technology breakthrough could take place, rendering the Model S less valuable. This is a big risk by Tesla.

    • Bob_Wallace

      “This program is NOT backed by Wells Fargo. They only take the credit risk.”

      How can Wells be taking the credit risk without backing the program? Are you defining “backing” in some strange way?

      • davidruggles

        BTW, Wells has to approve the credit on the deals. Tesla has no say in that.

  • Doug

    The depreciation on a Model S is about $1/mile driven; however, the wear and tear is limited to tires and a bit of the battery pack. The Model S should command very high resale values -it’s not like most cars that have continuous engine issues after 100,000 miles

    • davidruggles

      These days engines do NOT have continuous issues after 100K.

  • Bob_Wallace

    Tesla, as I read it, is guaranteeing a minimum value for a used S. If no one else will buy it for the minimum or higher, Tesla will.

    It’s a guarantee that you won’t get stuck if anyone in your area doesn’t want to buy your S.

    But let’s face facts. Teslas are likely to hold their value. Private individuals are likely snap up these cars as they become available and selling prices will be well above the minimum.

    Some people may choose to trade their S back to Tesla rather than go through the hassle of selling privately. Many new car purchasers do that now. Tesla will take them back for $37,500/whatever, spruce them up, sell them on for something higher.

    • Shiggity

      It took me longer than I care to admit to understand this. ;P

    • davidruggles

      Its a guarantee that Telsa will get ALL of them back if they market doesn’t support the guaranteed value.

  • Ivor O’Connor

    I’m not following the logic behind this article.

    • davidruggles

      Don’t feel bad. There isn’t a lot of logic to it.

      • Ivor O’Connor

        I don’t understand how much money Tesla is offering.

        Tesla seems to be saying “don’t worry, be happy”. I suppose things will turn out good but I like to know the lay of the land before I just be happy.

  • MaxDamage007

    This article is complete bull. Tesla will BUY back the car. As such they will have to sell for more to make any profit on it.

    • GPA

      ??? “Complete bull” ??? How so?

      • davidruggles

        Tesla MIGHT be able to make money from their guaranteed value program. OR they could lose their ass. For the moment, it gives buyers some peace of mind and helps keep their assembly line running.

        • Bob_Wallace

          David, it sounds as if you don’t know how well the Tesla S is selling. This is not a company teetering on the brink of failure as you seem to think.

          • davidruggles

            I understand the economics. Any start up is fragile. In the auto space, even more so. Tesla’s profits so far have been driven by accounting gimmicks and the sale of energy credits. They have a long way to go to become viable. I hope they succeed. They have taken immense risk. But that’s understandable for a new company trying to get traction. Its all part of the deal.

            I have NO PROBLEM with Tesla copying others’ good ideas. It shows they realize they don’t have to reinvent the wheel every step of the way. They will adopt other traditional best practices along they way and make some mistakes. Lets hope the mistakes don’t crater them. Thousands of Model S types coming back at a loss could by a disaster. Its a gamble, pure and simple. A logical one? Probably. Let’s not pretend there is no risk to it. If new tech or competition craters the value of pre-owned Model Ss, Tesla gets them all back without insurance to cover losses.

          • davidruggles

            RE: “Leases are not sales.”

            With a lease, the vehicle is sold to someone, the lessor. The Tesla guaranteed value program applies to BOTH lease and purchase contracts. I have a passing familiarity with leases, balloons, and finance.

          • davidruggles

            Its also way too early to pronounce the Model S as the safest car ever. These things get proven in millions of miles of driving, not in testing. If the claim is true it will be apparent after a while.

          • Bob_Wallace

            OK, Tesla has manufactured the safest car ever tested.

            Does that pass muster with you?

          • davidruggles

            You seem to have an issue with the posting of facts. I Netherlands facility IS a reassembly facility. Sales HAVE been lagging in Germany. The guaranteed value program IS a risky move. Tesla has shown a profit in two quarters based on energy credit sales and some accounting gimmicks. They HAVE done wonderfully for a start up. Time Will tell. 20K global sales is a feat, but it is WAY to early to declare a victory.

            As I’ve said often, I am rooting for them. That doesn’t mean I am a blind sycophant.

            And if the owners have this site have a problem with me, I’m sure they will let me know.

          • Bob_Wallace

            David, this site has notified you twice. Pay attention. Further all cap posts will be taken down.

            I really don’t care what you wish to call the Netherlands plant/operation. You were making a case that Tesla was not expanding their manufacturing to other countries and I pointed out to you that they already have.

            Now, what are the sales numbers in Germany? You are claiming that they are “lagging”. Most people would take that to mean that the numbers have fallen over time. Or are you using the word in a different way?

            You think Tesla’s price guarantee is a bad idea. You’re entitled to your opinion. I think it’s an interesting idea and I’m entitled to mine. And Tesla is allowed to operate their business in the fashion they think appropriate.

            I suspect that after several months they noticed that some potential buyers were backing away based on a concern of resale value. And the powers that be at Tesla cranked through the numbers and decided that setting a price floor would be good business.

          • davidruggles

            So now I know I’m “discussing with the blog owner and dictator who uses it to further his own agenda. Nice. This will be my LAST post.

            TESLA calls the Netherlands site a reassembly center. Sorry if that bothers you.

            If Tesla’s residuals weren’t risky, they’d be insured. They’re not.

            Fact is, ICE routinely run 200K without major issues. That’s not just Honda and Toyota.

            I NEVER said Tesla’s guaranteed value plan was a bad idea. I said it was risky. I said it was a gamble. I said they took the risk to keep the assembly line running without hiccups. Check your reading comprehension.

            I’m amazed the two banks allowed it. They’re holding the bag in a worst case instance. And BOTH of them have experience huge residual losses in the past. The powers at Tesala AND the banks had no numbers to crank because Tesla and EVs have no track record. It was all a SWAG. Yes, keeping the assembly line running without hiccups is good business.

            Tesla’s numbers in Germany were running behind Tesla’s own projections and were disappointing ESPECIALLY after they had done so well in other European countries.

            Tesla aced their NHTSA crash test, probably the best result so far. It will take million of miles to make the determination that Tesla is the safest car ever. At some point EVs might have to be tested differently, looking for vulnerabilities conventional vehicles don’t have. That determination isn’t made from initial crash testing, although you seem to have jumped to that conclusion. But then you seem to be a blind sycophant.

            Over and OUT.

          • Ivor O’Connor

            Tesla needs to gear up for Germany like they did for Norway. It is one country at a time.

            The guarantee program is not risky in any way, shape, form, if you read it closely.

            “As I’ve said often, I am rooting for them. That doesn’t mean I am a blind sycophant.” And that is why I value your posts.

            “And if the owners [of] this site have a problem with me, I’m sure they will let me know.” Bob is the moderator of this site and he has made it clear twice now that he has a problem with all caps. He really does. It’s amazing. Want to grind his gears. Use caps. Works every time. lol.

          • Bob_Wallace

            All caps, over the top name calling, personal attacks, batshit crazy rants, and gross stupidity….

            eta: Spamming and sock puppetry…..

          • Ivor O’Connor

            Urban Dictionary: sock puppet
            An account made on an internet message board, by a person who already has an account, for the purpose of posting more-or-less anonymously.

            I had to look that up. Do you get much of that?

          • Bob_Wallace

            Not often. Once in a while someone gives it a go. But we’ve had one individual who has been problematic over a long period of time.

            When you’ve got someone posting BS and then multiple “other people” backing them up it’s a real PITA. I end up spending a lot of time fact-checking.

          • Ivor O’Connor

            On the positive side that keeps the blood flowing on those slow days. :/

          • davidruggles

            Tesla is producing a very widely admired product and you are not.

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