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Batteries world energy storage capacity

Published on July 19th, 2013 | by Zachary Shahan

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Eos To Conquer The World?

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July 19th, 2013 by Zachary Shahan
 
eosEos Energy Storage is one of the energy storage startups we have highlighted as being a potentially “breakthrough energy storage company.” Before delving into the latest big news from Eos — you know, its plans to take over the world — let me just insert a little bit of context about market potential in the energy storage sector.

I think this phrase gets a bit old to those of us who cover this space, but in case you haven’t heard it, low-cost energy storage is sort of considered the holy grail of the clean energy economy. I will admit that I think it’s a little overhyped. We can get to extremely high penetrations of renewable energy with relatively little energy storage. However, energy storage is a big help. And, in actuality, low-cost energy storage would be a big help for the energy market across the board. We have an extremely small amount of energy storage on the grid. With regards to battery storage specifically, the CEO of Florida Power & Light (a large Florida utility) noted in a utility company CEO roundtable a couple years ago that, “if you took all the battery storage in the world, it could only produce the energy requirements of the world for like 10 minutes.” This results in wasted electricity generation at times of low demand, and very high prices at times of peak demand when all of a sudden peaker power plants have to be turned on (except in Germany and places with high solar energy generation). It’s also the reason why so much backup power capacity (backup power plants) have to be in place, for both renewable and nonrenewable resources.

It’s clear from watching the situation in Germany that, as solar power capacity grows, it won’t be too long before more electricity will be generated in the middle of the day than is needed on the surrounding grid. The same goes for wind power at night. A lot of wind power production has driven wholesale electricity prices below $0.00 in Texas, Germany, and Europe as a whole. So, energy storage becomes increasingly valuable. With it well understood across the industry that wind and solar power are the future and that energy storage costs are projected to drop (due to companies like Eos, as well as simple economies of scale), it’s projected that the energy storage market will indeed grow considerably in the coming years. Here’s a chart on just that from Eos itself:

energy storage market potential

And here’s a chart on the tiny part energy storage plays today:

world energy storage

And here’s one on the tiny part batteries play in that tiny part of the market:

world energy storage capacity

Anyway, the key with Eos (which we’ve written about previously) is that it is claiming that its technology comes at a very, very low price:

The Eos Aurora battery is projected to cost $1,000/kW or $160/kWh. The cycle life is 10,000 full cycles (30 year life). And the storage system has a 75% round-trip efficiency. As such, the LCOE is very competitive. (Click to enlarge.)

The Eos Aurora battery is projected to cost $1,000/kW or $160/kWh. The cycle life is 10,000 full cycles (30 year life). And the storage system has a 75% round-trip efficiency. As such, the LCOE is very competitive. (Click to enlarge.)


Eos Announces Huge Global Partnership

It seems the claims have reached some big ears. On to the news…

In an email sent to me earlier this week, a representative of Eos wrote:

In short, several of the world’s largest utilities, competitive energy providers and IPPs have committed to piloting Eos’s grid-scale battery storage technology and are intimately involved in Eos’s product development and demonstration process. Collectively known as the Genesis program, these partners represent over 300 gigawatts of generation, 1.6 million miles of transmission and distribution, and 76 million customers in over 70 countries – creating an unprecedented platform for introduction and ultimately widespread implementation of the technology.

This is big. Partners representing over 300 gigawatts of generation! 70 countries!

Going on:

Partners in Eos’s Genesis program include Enel (Italy’s largest utility with a 30 GW renewable IPP arm operating in the U.S. and internationally), National Grid (both the U.K. transmission operator and the U.S. utility), GDF Suez (the world’s largest IPP), and the Public Service Company of New Mexico (PNM). These partnerships follow previous announcement of Eos’s first pilot project with Con Edison of New York and announcement of financial investment made on behalf of NRG Energy, the largest competitive energy provider in the U.S.

We view these partnerships both as validation of Eos’s battery storage technology and go-to-market strategy, as well as an indication that grid-scale energy storage is quickly moving from a niche technology to widespread adoption in the utility sector.

“The Genesis program entails cooperation with integrated utilities, competitive energy providers, and pure transmission and distribution operators – a range that ensures the ability of Eos’s technology to address a variety of markets, operating models, and energy storage applications,” said Eos President Steve Hellman. “Eos looks forward to working with these partners, which include some of the world’s largest and most advanced utilities and energy companies, to demonstrate how our energy storage technology can create economic value throughout a wide range of uses.”

“Being the world’s leading supplier of energy and environmental efficiency services, and with 116 GW of installed generation capacity spanning more than 70 countries, GDF SUEZ is convinced of the growing need for energy storage worldwide,” commented Léon Duvivier, Vice President of Technology within the Research & Innovation Division at GDF SUEZ. “We look forward to exploring how energy storage can be monetized across a variety of market and regulatory structures.”

“Eos is focused on producing a reliable 25-year battery that can integrate into the utility grid at a price equivalent to a combustion gas turbine,” said PNM Chief Operating Officer Ron Talbot. “If they can do that, Eos will be in a position to change the way utilities do business.”

Putting Eos Prices Into Context

One of our readers also caught wind of this news and sent over some useful perspective. He noted some useful points for putting $160/kWh into perspective. The price of lithium-ion batteries is probably around $400/kWh, $250/kWh at the very lowest. Power Engineering quotes battery prices as being between $400 and $1000 per kWh today.

$160/kWh is a big change.

In a video on the Eos site, it notes being able to shift off-peak to peak for ~$0.10/kWh, all expenses included.

“If what they say is true, it’s the missing piece of the renewable energy puzzle. Affordable, distributable storage,” our anonymous reader adds.

“It gets us away from ‘big project’ storage such as pump-up and CAES, which takes years to build, and creates a solution which can be pumped out of factories close to the point of use. Plopped down in low cost real estate. And plugged into the grid. Modular storage.”

This is a big deal. We’ll see what comes of this Genesis program. We’ll see if $160/kWh is the price after all. And we’ll see if Eos really has what it takes to conquer the world. But the simple fact that it has so many big, key companies partnering with it is certainly something worth paying attention to.

By the way, if you want more info or quotes from Eos, check out the full Eos press release and/or the Eos website.

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About the Author

is the director of CleanTechnica, the most popular cleantech-focused website in the world, and Planetsave, a world-leading green and science news site. He has been covering green news of various sorts since 2008, and he has been especially focused on solar energy, electric vehicles, and wind energy since 2009. Aside from his work on CleanTechnica and Planetsave, he's the founder and director of Solar Love, EV Obsession, and Bikocity. To connect with Zach on some of your favorite social networks, go to ZacharyShahan.com and click on the relevant buttons.



  • Russell

    What about this for Li-ion battery cost?

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084682_what-goes-into-a-tesla-model-s-battery–and-what-it-may-cost

    Claims to be a lot less than $400, and those batteries are apparently being used to store solar. Even if they are a little more expensive, because the RTE is much better it could be a real competitor.

    • brink

      they dont even have a product yet, what are you talking about

      • Russell

        You seem to be denying everything, however SolarCity do have a working system:
        “SolarCity is testing 8 kilowatt-hour battery packs provided by Tesla Motors Inc. (TSLA), the electric car company run by Rive’s cousin Elon Musk.”

        http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-26/solarcity-says-batteries-reduce-risk-of-utility-backlash.html

        • brink

          Quite the opposite, I am not a energy storage denier. I market storage systems for a living. What I object to is another Li ion holy grail for the grid scenario, for regulators to deny putting storage policies in place. Storage will save millions of dollars in energy pricing for distributed generation customers. Wind developers were averse to Li ion long before the utilities and their slick government demonstration contracts with Li ion battery manufacturers . It was a money game for the manufacturer and for the utility it was a basis for denying storage’s value to the system if they had a dominant battery chemistry that they say could not stand up to grid scale conditions and service level. I am strictly talking grid scale multi- megawatt applications here. I am also referring specifically to the EOS battery claim, nothing more.

  • Renewable Energy

    How do you think this compares to Zinc Air, Inc that you featured a little while ago? I haven’t heard much from them recently.

    • http://zacharyshahan.com/ Zachary Shahan

      Sorry for the delay. Busy week. I’m not sure. Really hard to know until they’re competing in the market. Eos seems to be getting there a little quicker.

  • Wayne Williamson

    Two things…
    The last graphic show $1000kw and $160kwh(in the same box). What is this and why the difference.
    I wonder if they will get around to a residential size installation…something that would keep things running at home for an hour, a day, a week…
    Ok a third thing, I hope they succeed with their “tests”.

    • blink

      they have not produced the first unit so save the hype and the system that are based on zinc chemistry are no where close to performing at those costs and life cycle levels

      • Omega Centauri

        I thought zinc-air had a real issue with not getting many cycles. They claim a breakthrough that does ten thousand. If thats really true, and it can be done on an industrial scale, they could have a winner. Obviously it isn’t in the bag in any sense.

        • brink

          exactly, i market these storage units and know the chemistry pretty good. I have watched the Li ion hype for years. Li ion is great for small applications but you will have major issues at grid scale due to the energy dense chemical inherent runaway thermal heat factor. i know what they claim to have accomplished with the cycles but it will not work overtime in field applications. Go to the website and they have all these added components and hybrid systems the reason for that is cycling issues

          • mds

            brink
            “Li ion is great for small applications but you will have major issues at grid scale due to the energy dense chemical inherent runaway thermal heat factor.”

            This may be true for the older Lithium-cobalt batteries, but is not true for some of the newer Lithium chemistries. There are now a lot of cars driving around with safe and reliable lithium batteries. You’re telling me they cannot install inverters in these cars and feed power into the grid, safely and reliably, just as solar panels on people’s homes are already doing. Nonsense! So far Lithium is too expensive for grid storage applications. That is the only real problem.
            You’re a sales guy, not a tech, certainly not a thinker and doer. What else are you wrong about? What exactly are you offering that is better?
            Yes, big utilities are worried about the impact of solar and wind on their business. They can re-invent themselves as energy redistributors and energy storers… or they can go under. If this is some kind of plot it will not work. The storage problem is solvable. renewables are here to stay.

          • brink

            First of all we have experienced utility (electrical engineers ) advisers who act as our sales consultants. I am the company owner and yes I know the chemistry and battery system I sell very well.I also have to now the competitive landscape and their issues as well.

            My sales consultants are a former Director of Capital Projects at one of the largest municipals in the country. The other was the Director of Transmission and Distribution Business Unit at another large municipal. The third was the Director of an energy trading desk. I am a doer that is why I own the company, i employ people and I try for an honest day of work.

            The vanadium flow battery is better and has proven its basic technology and yes it outperformed the Li ion battery in testing on the PJM grid system. The li ion battery failed frequency regulating tests after half an hour, did not respond as quickly and was more much more expensive on an per kwhr operating basis than the vanadium flow battery that was tested. This is inside information not something I read.

          • brink

            By the way the new Li ion you talk about nothing has changed there. Better thermal management is what has gotten better. Quality control in manufacturing is an issue with li ion. it does not take away the threat of a car battery having issues. Tesla puts together their own battery configuration and system to minimize risk of a hazard. They sell the batteries to their companies for their vehicles obviously they feel the battery itself is an issue or else you would not need all the extra protections. It is cost prohibitive for a manufacturer of batteries for grid to do the same and we are talking much higher voltage and stresses than tooling around in your car

      • Bob_Wallace

        It is my understanding that Eos has produced zinc-air batteries and they have undergone initial testing.

        Do you have specific information to the contrary or are you simply speculating/

        • blink

          if you go to their website they are signing up partners for future delivery in my world that is speak for no units. they have a prototype for demonstration purposes and not even to the level of demonstration in the field. bottom line is they have not started manufacturing any units.

        • brink

          speculating!!! the only speculation is on your part. Read your own statement “it is my understanding that Eos has produced zinc-air batteries and they have undergone initial testing.”

          1.UNDERSTANDING means you do not have direct knowledge
          2. I have always talked about “field testing” not bench prototyping
          3. “Field Testing” means in the “field” real world conditions for a period of time. At a substation performing those functions for which it will be sold, not signing people up on a list

          • Bob_Wallace

            I have been very clear that I do not have inside information about EoS.

            This article asks the question whether EoS will be a game changer. It does not state that EoS will change the world.

            Apparently you also have no inside information and are also speculating.

          • brink

            nope not at all looking at the facts why don;t you ask them where they have sited a battery in the field ? real conditions like on someones grid , heck give me a demonstration site ? and we can clear it all up and if i am wrong i will say so.

          • Bob_Wallace

            We know where some of the first field tests will be held.

            “Partners in Eos’s Genesis program include Enel (Italy’s largest utility with a 30 GW renewable IPP arm operating in the U.S. and internationally), National Grid (both the U.K. transmission operator and the U.S. utility), GDF Suez (the world’s largest IPP), and the Public Service Company of New Mexico (PNM).

            These partnerships follow previous announcement of Eos’s first pilot project with Con Edison of New York and announcement of financial investment made on behalf of NRG Energy, the largest competitive energy provider in the U.S.”

            Do you think these organizations would have signed up if there was no working prototype they could test?

            We should be finding out fairly soon if their battery works on real grids.

            Perhaps we’re arguing over the definition of the word “manufacturing”. I’m using it to indicate batteries have been made. You may be using it in the sense of “large scale production has occurred”. At this point it’s likely that most of their manufacturing is more “hand-crafting” than automated factory.

          • brink

            i said they had a prototype what i said was that was no field project which to point to and according to your response which you copied from an article i was correct (to be held!!!!!!)

            Also the capex on these systems are not $160/kwh see my response to your cost argument. the system as sold will not include the inverter and the electronics. those are fact not speculation

          • brink

            bob they have not manufactured anything on a small nor large scale. they do have a working prototype that is it. when you produce you are delivering. on their website it states they will not deliver until 2014. My NEW manufacturer started production in June they have the capacity to deliver (manufacture) 50MW by the end of the year

    • Omega Centauri

      There are two figures of merit: How much power (which is the instantaneous output) can it support, and how much energy, which is the product of power and time. So according to those numbers, if you pay $1000, you can get a kilowatt out, and it will last for six hours.

    • http://zacharyshahan.com/ Zachary Shahan

      Sorry for the delay. it is the capital cost, not LCOE. here’s a reply on this that i received from the Eos team after sending along a similar question:

      Hi Zachary,

      Thanks for following up. I’m guessing there’s a bit of confusion between capital cost and levelized cost of energy. Our planned pricing for our 1 MW / 6MWh DC battery system is $1M. A 6 MWh battery has 6,000 kWh, so $1M / 6,000 kWh = $167/kWh, which we have rounded down to $160/kWh. This is a measurement of the battery’s upfront capital cost based on its energy density.

      In a levelized cost of energy analysis, the lifetime cost of the battery system (including the upfront capital cost, power electronics, operations and maintenance, cost of energy to charge the battery, etc.) is divided by the lifetime energy output of the battery. In that analysis, we estimate a range of $0.12 – $0.17 / kWh (the range is due to the different costs of energy to charge the battery). That range translates to a levelized cost of $120 – $170 / MWh.

      So, the tweet you received is correct — we may end up being ~$160 / MWh (a bit more or a bit less dependent on energy prices). But we will also be $160/kWh in terms of the capital cost of the DC battery system.

      Does this make sense?

      Thanks again for clarifying,
      Ben

      • brink

        I just went to one of your other articles where it stated that EOS’s grid battery $1000 kw did not include the cost of the inverter on a 1MW 6 hour battery. if it does not include the inverter than what about the electronic control system?
        let s say the inverter was $500,000 dollars added to that system or the total of the electronics was that, then that equates to $250 kwh. please explain “THE SPECULATOR”

        • Bob_Wallace

          If you do the simple battery math, $160/kWh / 10,000 cycles you get $0.016/kWh.

          If you go to the EOS web site and listen to their presentation they indicate the full cost of using their batteries for storage to be approximately $0.10/kWh.

          That additional $0.084 pays for the inverter, wiring, real estate, etc.

          • brink

            operating and maintenance cost are separate in the battery world Bob. You do not put the two together , one is hard capex (COST OF EQUIPMENT) and the other (COST TO OPERATE AND MAINTENANCE) all are factored in when discussing LCOE. But SEPARATE fo r our discussion

          • Bob_Wallace

            Further all-caps posts will be deleted.

            It’s not clear to me that you and I are having a discussion. You seem to be having a discussion with someone other than me.

            There are two main up front cost categories – cost of battery and BOS costs. O&M and profits come along later.

            What exactly do you want to discuss?

            That field trials have not started yet for EOS batteries? There’s no discussion. It’s clear from the article above.

            That there’s more to a storage system than just the battery? Well, duh.

            That vanadium redox batteries will be cheaper? Perhaps. We need data to tell us that.

            That lithium-ion batteries are not a cheap storage option? I think most agree with that.

          • brink

            $1000/MW (inverter) included documented 8 cents or less operating costs.

        • Bob_Wallace

          And before you nit-pick.

          $167/kWh should be rounded up to $170/kWh, not down to $160/kWh.

          We’re talking a battery that might be significantly cheaper than any other easy to install battery. It shouldn’t have any materials problems. It could be placed in residential or commercial buildings which would give it an immense advantage over batteries which require more attention.

          Vanadium redox batteries may prove out to be a better option. Time and testing will let us know.

          • brink

            bob an extra cost of an inverter is not $3 dollars on a system of that size we are talking hundreds of thousands not including the electronics $500,000 extra gets you to $250 kwh

          • Bob_Wallace

            I don’t believe that I claimed an inverter could be purchased for $3.

            $250 is your number and I’m not arguing with it.

            $160/kWh / 10,000 cycles = $0.016/kWh.

            EOS is stating a cost of around $0.10/kWh to store using their batteries. That’s $0.084 > than $0.016.

            Try reading replies before posting.

          • brink

            you do not understand storage economics and how they operate. capex and o&m are not the same

          • Bob_Wallace

            Would you please show me where I claimed they were?

          • brink

            you allude to that when you made your argument about operating cost. i understand you do not want to look like you do not understand

          • Bob_Wallace

            Please point out that specific comment.

  • Lucas K.

    It has also a high density, which makes it possible to place it in districts, without taking much room.

    • blink

      have not produced the first unit so save the hype and the systems that
      are based on zinc chemistry are no where close to performing at those
      costs and life cycle levels

      • Omega Centauri

        I think you are being a bit to negative. Sure, at this point it is simply the word of their PR department. We will simply have to wait and see, if they have managed to overcome the limitations.
        There are a few storage startups with plans for “cheap” storage, battery; variants on CAES, thermal storage. Hopefully at least on of these golden eggs, will not be made of Iron Pyrite (fools Gold).

        • blink

          then you should not be speaking as though it is fact., not being negative but this is like playing into the big utilities hands. they want something they can point to and say look it doesn’t work. I protest because they have no track record for this chemistry other than prototyping where is the field demonstration over a period of time. the zinc chemistry that is out there is a basis for projected success and it is no where close to >10,000 cycles. Red Flow out of Australia was talking about the same type of process and they are years ahead of EOS yet it is not the dominant chemistry because there you have to prove yourself. In America everyone goes for the big contract deal and no sound basis of fact. Government money is good for keeping these companies afloat. then what?

          these big utilities have no interest in seeing storage become a factor it is a nail in their coven. they got caught looking with solar but they are awake now. Let me explain how this effects them on a large scale. lets ay you have a Duke energy of FPL that has a large supply contract with a municipal utility. the demand charge to that utility for its service area is $20 a kilowatt and lets say net (monthly) peak demand is 10 MW that is $20 x 20,000 kw ($400,000) in potential savings to the municipal utility which it could pass on to its customers or put in its city’s general fund (monthly) that is a loss to Duke on a monthly basis, which would normally go to service debt on capital expenditures and shareholder revenue etc. what would you be thinking; “Boy, I am really going to help this along” No way!!!!

          • blink

            Coffin

          • blink

            10,000 x 20= $200,000

            sorry losing today. a lot on my mind

  • arne-nl

    Another added advantage of the distributed nature of battery storage is that it can take the place of transport capacity and prevent the need for costly grid upgrades.

    Batteries will play an important role, but in terms of raw storage capacity I don’t easily see it surpassing hydro. The main function is to stabilise electricity prices. Too much fluctuations are bad. It is nice to see that this is the free market doing its work to help integrate renewables.

    Battery storage is very useful for for shifting daytime solar to the night, but raw storage capacity is too limited for seasonal shifting of solar energy from summer to winter. That task will imo be done by biomass. At the same time biomass will be our insurance against prolonged periods of low wind and solar.

    • brink

      i am suspect when a company starts talking about coupling to other technologies (hybrid) that tells me there are serious issues there. Also cost is not the only factor (round trip efficiency, depth of discharge and functionality ) come into play. Can it take an overcharge of 200% without degradation to the chemicals thus lower performance, Is it resilient on its own? Vanadium flow batteries already operate under 8 cents kwh. Capex at $1000 kW including BOS. Their pricing is based on field demonstration not computer modeling, they step power up or down and can be designed to take power over loads of up to 400% with no degradation.

      Any losses are regenerative

      • Bob_Wallace

        75% round trip efficiency, >10,000 100% DoD cycles.

        Why would one overcharge a battery? (Lead-acid for equalization excepted.)

        • brink

          Power surges happen all the time at substations, transformers in your home and elsewhere (where have you been) I live in Florida and they had AC units that blew because guess what? A power surge; started a fire at a hotel. Round trip efficiency is okay but not great, a 80% round trip via another technology will offset some or all capex price differential when running your cash flow model. In other words to that end user it kind of evens the playing field when looking at ROI, then other factors will have to come into play such as cycling life, environmental, safety, FUNCTIONALITY, etc…

          • Bob_Wallace

            75% rt efficiency at $160/kWh beats 80% rt efficiency at $400/kWh.

            It seems to me that Eos is more expensive than pump-up hydro but the ease in siting, speed at which they can be brought on line, and ability to be spread around the grid gives them a clear advantage over pump-up.

            You can’t order up a MWh of pump-up and have it trucked to your neighborhood.

            If batteries would be damaged by a spike, then protect them. That is not rocket science.

          • brink

            that is why FUNCTIONALITY is important. If your system cannot function as lets say a transformer (stepping power up and down) absorbing power surges then that is a revenue stream you are missing out on. Secondly, from a utility perspective you do not make the business case versus the system that can perform that function.

            Essentially having that type of functionality extends the life of the substation and defers that expense. A transformer is in the range of $800,000 dollars and they typically have a back up for the back up at these stations. NOW YOU DO THE MATH!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Bob_Wallace

            You’re so cute when you get mad and shout. Do you stamp your little feet as well?

            Again, if you’ve got inexpensive battery storage but those batteries would be harmed by a grid surge, then protect them from the surge.

          • brink

            I want even respond to that last statement because it is beneath me to answer such a dumb question. think about it hmm….. why does the equipment that as part of its function as a service need to be protected from that very thing, not to mention the ADDITIONAL expense that would go into that. You are NOT cute when stomping your feet

          • Bob_Wallace

            If Eos batteries are our cheapest way to store energy, then they are our cheapest way.

            If they don’t do surge absorption as well as store energy then we need another way to deal with surges rather than blow out $800,000 transformers.

            Ultracapacitors might be a good choice for sucking up spikes.

            If there’s another storage device that can store energy and absorb spikes and has a lower cost than Eos batteries + something else, then that storage device will take over.

          • brink

            and how much is a ultra capacitor? cost prohibitive i would say and the grid system is not somewhere to perform experiments of that nature? that is a recipe for disaster. there are systems that deal with surges and store energy and perform ancillary services and operate for under 8cents a kilowatt hour (vanadium flow battery) and that have been running out in the field for at least 25 years. recent improvements have brought cost way down on a proven technology

          • Bob_Wallace

            UCs are not cheap. Largely because they are not being manufactured in quantity.

            The grid is exactly where we would experiment with UCs as a surge absorber. We do this sort of experimentation all the time.

            Glad you pointed out that vanadium flow batteries can absorb surges. Put some on the grid and soak up surges. If they are cheaper than UCs, then use them.

          • brink

            they are gaining traction since all the li ion hype is dying down. people are now starting to recognize the advantage of the modular and scability

          • Bob_Wallace

            I’m going to be dropping about $2,500 on a new lead-acid battery bank in the next couple of months.

            I wish I could spend my money on a couple EOS batteries, get far more storage (since they could be run down to full discharge rather than only 20%) and have a 25 year lifespan.

            With a couple of their $1,000 packs I could probably eliminate my generator use. I’d have enough storage to carry me through storms. And with a 30 year life expectancy I’d never have to buy new batteries as opposed to having to buy an new set about ten years from now.

          • Ivor O’Connor

            Which $1,000 packs are you going to buy?

          • Bob_Wallace

            I’m going battery shopping to get some prices. I’m deciding between the new Trojan T-105 REs that are designed for off-grid storage and regular ‘golf cart’ batteries.

            Normal golf cart batteries won’t last as long, but are cheaper.

            If the price difference is large enough I may go for the golf carts, assuming that 7, 8 years from now there will be a much better choice and the money I save now can be spent on a better battery.

          • Ivor O’Connor

            http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/176-8363791-2565655?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Trojan%20T-105%20RE

            I was noticing there appears to be a 20% deviation between worst and best case practices on these batteries. So if using them optimally you might get 10 years out of them. And if you used them in the worst possible way you would still get 8 years out of them. Which makes them ideal for idiots like me who half the time can’t remember to turn things off.

          • Bob_Wallace

            IIRC regular golf cart batteries are rated at “5-7″ years. I’ve pushed a set to 8 but I was probably running my generator more.

            If the price difference isn’t too big I may go for the REs since they can apparently be taken much lower without damage.

            That way I could hold off on running the generator if it was going to get sunny within a day or two (longer than I would push regular golf carts).

            They might not last 10 years if I did that, but I think we’re no more than five years away from something a lot better. And cheaper.

          • Ivor O’Connor

            “That way I could hold off on running the generator if it was going to get sunny within a day or two (longer than I would push regular golf carts).”

            Having only a 20% loss even when consistently draining the battery from 100 to 0 makes it an excellent “trainer” battery. More importantly though it allows the finely tuned systems, like yours, to be much more efficient. I like the idea of being able to buy and only worry about the needed capacity and not have to overbuy because of the characteristics of the batteries.

            However cost is important. I wonder how much cheaper the golf cart batteries are after you overbuy to allow for the different chemistry.

          • brink

            HI BOB A QUOTE FOR YOU FROM ANOTHER CLEANTECHNICA ARTICLE NOTICE NO INVERTER WITH PRICE OF $1000/MW OR ELECTRONICS. SO THE PER KWH IS GOING TO BE MUCH HIGHER . LETS SAY IT IS $1,500,000 FOR THE PRICE VERSUS $1,000,000 THAN THAT IS $250KWH NOT $160

            Several products are anticipated by Eos, such as the following:

            The Eos Aurora 1000/6000 is designed for
            utility-scale energy storage and is delivered in a standard ISO 40′
            shipping container (1MW/6MW-hr) for immediate deployment. There are no
            sub-components that need routine replacement, and the system is expected
            to last at least 10,000 true (full discharge) cycles, or about 30
            years, with a cost of 1000/kW and $160/kW-hr. The cost does not include
            necessary inverters. Power supplied by this storage is expected to be
            less than gas turbine peaking plants at about $ .02 to $.06 /kW-hr.
            Product deliveries will begin in 2013.

            IT IS NOW 2013, THEY SIGNING PEOPLE UP FOR 2014!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Bob_Wallace

            (No all-caps, please.)

            You are repeating yourself. You already made the $250 including inverter. I already answered.

          • brink

            good for you on the battery purchases good luck to you . I get your point

          • mds

            Yes, houses are just blowing up all the time where I live. There is just no way to protect against this without making the gird battery do that… NOT! Maybe EOS has something real, maybe they don’t. Maybe they have factored in the cost of surge protection. After all the cycle life and cost/Wh storage capacity they give result in a much lower electricity price than 10c/kWh given. Maybe you are wrong. If it is a con we’ll know soon enough and other storage players will step in to take their place. Got something better for us or are you just another no-can-do man?

          • brink

            not wrong and how much power is going to your individual home versus a commercial operation and i am talking grid application at substation level and yes (transformers) do blow in the neighborhood all the time. A bright sunny day at home and all of a sudden BOOM!!!!! your power is out or your neighbor or the the houses one street over lose power. IT HAPPENS !!!! I am not wrong and they are not right all i am saying is they do not have a working unit rolled off the manufacturing floor to even give a field demonstration.

            Now you listen if you cannot perform the basic service of a battery system which is to take high power and step it down or and discharge it then that is a LOSS of REVENUE which takes away any advantage you may have had in pricing

    • dynamo.joe

      It’s always summer somewhere Arne.

    • brink

      you have no clue what you are talking about. storage is anytime anywhere technology.they are a companion to biomass and any generation. biomass as a peak power source is too expensive and slow (ramp) up. In certain parts of the US (Texas) (Washington) State there is negative off peak pricing. This means that storage operators are being paid to take electricity and making money when discharging at peak period at a 10% over revenue pricing

      • http://soltesza.wordpress.com/ sola

        Do you actually read before you answer a comment?

        Biomass was mentioned for seasonal load shifting, not as an alternative to short-term storage for peak shaving.

        • brink

          do you know what you are talking about? storage as a function is the same. duh!

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