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	<title>Comments on: Double Standard For Nuclear Energy &amp; Wind Energy In UK?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
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		<title>By: CaptD</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-201443</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CaptD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jan 2014 17:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-201443</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good point that is never mentioned when pro-nuclear proponents discuss safety, especially in the decades of NPP operations.  There were even a few close calls in the USA during the last year when river flooding raised many safety concerns!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point that is never mentioned when pro-nuclear proponents discuss safety, especially in the decades of NPP operations.  There were even a few close calls in the USA during the last year when river flooding raised many safety concerns!</p>
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		<title>By: CaptD</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-201438</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CaptD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jan 2014 17:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-201438</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry John, Nuclear is in reality, only a &quot;good deal&quot; for the Utilities and their shareholders that own them because ratepayers have to pay for everything, even mis-management (like the debacle that occurred at San Onofre NPP which left ratepayers holding a multi-billion dollar bill) and that does not even include decommissioning which has its own set of huge expenses which will continue &quot;forever&quot;.


In short, nuclear is no longer fiscally acceptable, if it was then these Utilities would fund them themselves instead on requiring Gov&#039;t. guarantees!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry John, Nuclear is in reality, only a &#8220;good deal&#8221; for the Utilities and their shareholders that own them because ratepayers have to pay for everything, even mis-management (like the debacle that occurred at San Onofre NPP which left ratepayers holding a multi-billion dollar bill) and that does not even include decommissioning which has its own set of huge expenses which will continue &#8220;forever&#8221;.</p>
<p>In short, nuclear is no longer fiscally acceptable, if it was then these Utilities would fund them themselves instead on requiring Gov&#8217;t. guarantees!</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191436</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191436</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks.  I got a lot of my original information about Hughes from Jerome. 
We have people showing up here (and on other green tech sites) trying to &quot;educate&quot; us using erronous information from very low quality sources.  One wonders if they are intentionally spreading lies or whether they are so stupid that they actually believe the stuff they read/hear from those sources.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks.  I got a lot of my original information about Hughes from Jerome.<br />
We have people showing up here (and on other green tech sites) trying to &#8220;educate&#8221; us using erronous information from very low quality sources.  One wonders if they are intentionally spreading lies or whether they are so stupid that they actually believe the stuff they read/hear from those sources.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Vermeer</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191406</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Vermeer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191406</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gordon Hughes is with the Global Warming Policy Foundation, a well-known liars&#039; club apparently expanding into wind power. Debunkings are not hard to find, e.g.

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2012/10/22/43139/909
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2012/12/20/181630/07

...and why anyone would quote the Telegraph with a straight face as a source for anything at all also escapes me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gordon Hughes is with the Global Warming Policy Foundation, a well-known liars&#8217; club apparently expanding into wind power. Debunkings are not hard to find, e.g.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2012/10/22/43139/909" rel="nofollow">http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2012/10/22/43139/909</a><br />
<a href="http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2012/12/20/181630/07" rel="nofollow">http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2012/12/20/181630/07</a></p>
<p>&#8230;and why anyone would quote the Telegraph with a straight face as a source for anything at all also escapes me.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191157</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Nov 2013 01:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This Hughes POS crops up from time to time.  Pro-coal/nuclear people try to use it to discredit wind.  



There&#039;s another piece of data which is actually correct but is misused.  Some European wind farms are being repowered after 15 years or so.  



That is not due to turbine failure, but advances in turbine size/technology combined with limited real estate resources.  It&#039;s paying to take down smaller, shorter rigs and replacing them with much taller, larger swept area units.


Those removed turbines are refurbished and sold on to countries with larger wind resources and less capital to invest in energy production.  It&#039;s a good way to increase  wind penetration in Europe and a great way to get some wind supply up and running in less developed countries.


Watch for people claiming that Germany&#039;s/whosoever turbines have worn out after 10-15 years and have to be replaced.  It&#039;s a convenient lie.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This Hughes POS crops up from time to time.  Pro-coal/nuclear people try to use it to discredit wind.  </p>
<p>There&#8217;s another piece of data which is actually correct but is misused.  Some European wind farms are being repowered after 15 years or so.  </p>
<p>That is not due to turbine failure, but advances in turbine size/technology combined with limited real estate resources.  It&#8217;s paying to take down smaller, shorter rigs and replacing them with much taller, larger swept area units.</p>
<p>Those removed turbines are refurbished and sold on to countries with larger wind resources and less capital to invest in energy production.  It&#8217;s a good way to increase  wind penetration in Europe and a great way to get some wind supply up and running in less developed countries.</p>
<p>Watch for people claiming that Germany&#8217;s/whosoever turbines have worn out after 10-15 years and have to be replaced.  It&#8217;s a convenient lie.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191152</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191152</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s what Hughes claimed -

&quot;the efficiency rating of a turbine based on the percentage of electricity it actually produces compared with its theoretical maximum — is reduced from 24 per cent in the first 12 months of operation to just 11 per cent after 15 years.


I&#039;ve posted some annual performance data for combined wind farms.  Let me post some for individual wind farms.  See if you can spot a decline toward 11% after 15 years.


What one can see is that 2010 was a relatively poor wind year which dropped annual output for older and newer wind farms.



And that as wind technology improves the annual performance (CF) of wind farms is increasing.  



Did Hughes draw a straight line from year 1 through 2010 and project a drop to 11%?  If so, he would have to put his thumb over the 2011 CF.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s what Hughes claimed &#8211;</p>
<p>&#8220;the efficiency rating of a turbine based on the percentage of electricity it actually produces compared with its theoretical maximum — is reduced from 24 per cent in the first 12 months of operation to just 11 per cent after 15 years.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve posted some annual performance data for combined wind farms.  Let me post some for individual wind farms.  See if you can spot a decline toward 11% after 15 years.</p>
<p>What one can see is that 2010 was a relatively poor wind year which dropped annual output for older and newer wind farms.</p>
<p>And that as wind technology improves the annual performance (CF) of wind farms is increasing.  </p>
<p>Did Hughes draw a straight line from year 1 through 2010 and project a drop to 11%?  If so, he would have to put his thumb over the 2011 CF.</p>
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		<title>By: heinbloed</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191143</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[heinbloed]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191143</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;  Why do wind mills in CA last so much longer than those in UK? &quot;

And why do they last hundreds of years around the Northsea ( that&#039;s where Denmark is) ?

This one was blown down during the recent stormy weather, it was errected in 1692 and repowered in 1856, the local historian club renovated it last year again:

http://www.nonstopnews.de/meldung/17779

picture gallery:

http://www.nonstopnews.de/galerie/17779

There are many Danish windmills standing since centuries as well.


To get to an average life-time of ten years (see the Telegraph&#039;s trash-data) would mean that new windmills get blown away within hours after installation ?  Must be British ...:)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221;  Why do wind mills in CA last so much longer than those in UK? &#8221;</p>
<p>And why do they last hundreds of years around the Northsea ( that&#8217;s where Denmark is) ?</p>
<p>This one was blown down during the recent stormy weather, it was errected in 1692 and repowered in 1856, the local historian club renovated it last year again:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nonstopnews.de/meldung/17779" rel="nofollow">http://www.nonstopnews.de/meldung/17779</a></p>
<p>picture gallery:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nonstopnews.de/galerie/17779" rel="nofollow">http://www.nonstopnews.de/galerie/17779</a></p>
<p>There are many Danish windmills standing since centuries as well.</p>
<p>To get to an average life-time of ten years (see the Telegraph&#8217;s trash-data) would mean that new windmills get blown away within hours after installation ?  Must be British &#8230;:)</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191119</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 21:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191119</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I downloaded the database and started plotting out the oldest UK wind farms.  I found no drop in performance after ten years after I  had plotted about ten farms.  Then I found that someone had plotted them all in the graph above so I quit.


Hughes claim is bull.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I downloaded the database and started plotting out the oldest UK wind farms.  I found no drop in performance after ten years after I  had plotted about ten farms.  Then I found that someone had plotted them all in the graph above so I quit.</p>
<p>Hughes claim is bull.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Williamson</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191118</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Williamson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 21:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191118</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No John, this article is stating that a wind installations output decrease significantly by 10 years...I do not see it in the stats....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No John, this article is stating that a wind installations output decrease significantly by 10 years&#8230;I do not see it in the stats&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Williamson</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191116</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Williamson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 21:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191116</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, I spent several hours reviewing the stats on the website and I could not figure out where he got those numbers...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I spent several hours reviewing the stats on the website and I could not figure out where he got those numbers&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Grad</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Grad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 20:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also, sea level rise and consumption of river water (especially when drought conditions) may become an ever bigger problem for nuclear.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, sea level rise and consumption of river water (especially when drought conditions) may become an ever bigger problem for nuclear.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191105</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 20:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In order to match supply to demand both wind/solar and nuclear need storage. 
Nuclear is roughly 3x as expensive as wind/solar.  Adding the cost of storage to both still leaves nuclear vastly more expensive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In order to match supply to demand both wind/solar and nuclear need storage.<br />
Nuclear is roughly 3x as expensive as wind/solar.  Adding the cost of storage to both still leaves nuclear vastly more expensive.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191104</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 20:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191104</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, John.  That is completely incorrect.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, John.  That is completely incorrect.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: John Tucker</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191099</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Tucker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 19:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191099</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wind and solar cannot operate 24/7. So this article is arguing for mixed fossil fuels as well. 



Nuclear power is a better deal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wind and solar cannot operate 24/7. So this article is arguing for mixed fossil fuels as well. </p>
<p>Nuclear power is a better deal.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: John Tucker</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191100</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Tucker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 19:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191100</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All wind usually requires a complete overhaul in 10 years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All wind usually requires a complete overhaul in 10 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191083</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191083</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hughes reports that Danish and UK wind farms drop performance significantly after 15 or so years.  Here&#039;s how the data plots out for those wind farms.


These are the data points plotted from the database cited in Hughes&#039;s report.  He engages in some sort of statistical voodoo to show that the wind farms are failing after 10-15 years.  People who have tried to figure out his math state that it does not calculate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hughes reports that Danish and UK wind farms drop performance significantly after 15 or so years.  Here&#8217;s how the data plots out for those wind farms.</p>
<p>These are the data points plotted from the database cited in Hughes&#8217;s report.  He engages in some sort of statistical voodoo to show that the wind farms are failing after 10-15 years.  People who have tried to figure out his math state that it does not calculate.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191081</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191081</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That claim comes from a bogus report published on an anti-wind web site.  



Just try to find any data that supports it.


Hughes wrote some real garbage that the data base he cites does not support.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That claim comes from a bogus report published on an anti-wind web site.  </p>
<p>Just try to find any data that supports it.</p>
<p>Hughes wrote some real garbage that the data base he cites does not support.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: JamesWimberley</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191080</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JamesWimberley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191080</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It was by Professor Gordon Hughes of Edinburgh University;  see here: http://www.ref.org.uk/publications/280-analysis-of-wind-farm-performance-in-uk-and-denmark The study is an outlier, and its pessimistic conclusion has clearly been rejected by many large investors in wind like Warren Buffett. There has been considerable improvement in wind turbine design and maintenance practice since the few early installations on which Hughes&#039; historical analysis relies - clashing with experience at Altamont, as Toke says.  When GE claims a 20-year design life for its turbines, it incurs a legal liability to sharp-toothed and well-lawyered investors like Buffett; should we disbelieve both?

The performance drop Hughes records can&#039;t be due to the towers and rotor blades, and can presumably be fixed with a partial rebuild of the generator and gearbox. This would cost far less than a new turbine. Though sometimes it&#039;s a better deal to rebuild completely on the same site.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was by Professor Gordon Hughes of Edinburgh University;  see here: <a href="http://www.ref.org.uk/publications/280-analysis-of-wind-farm-performance-in-uk-and-denmark" rel="nofollow">http://www.ref.org.uk/publications/280-analysis-of-wind-farm-performance-in-uk-and-denmark</a> The study is an outlier, and its pessimistic conclusion has clearly been rejected by many large investors in wind like Warren Buffett. There has been considerable improvement in wind turbine design and maintenance practice since the few early installations on which Hughes&#8217; historical analysis relies &#8211; clashing with experience at Altamont, as Toke says.  When GE claims a 20-year design life for its turbines, it incurs a legal liability to sharp-toothed and well-lawyered investors like Buffett; should we disbelieve both?</p>
<p>The performance drop Hughes records can&#8217;t be due to the towers and rotor blades, and can presumably be fixed with a partial rebuild of the generator and gearbox. This would cost far less than a new turbine. Though sometimes it&#8217;s a better deal to rebuild completely on the same site.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Williamson</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191075</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Williamson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 15:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191075</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The article mentions a report, but there is no mention of who created the report or at least a link to it.  I also see most of the comments very anti wind...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article mentions a report, but there is no mention of who created the report or at least a link to it.  I also see most of the comments very anti wind&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/09/uk-nuclear-price-uk-wind-energy-price/#comment-191062</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 13:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=58772#comment-191062</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok someone is smoking it.
1) Above claims UK uses 15 years your link 20-25 (that sound exact) for calcualtions.
2) Why do wind mills in CA last so much longer than those in UK?
3) The one item in the link that did read true, was that if you place turbine too close together they don&#039;t as well if they are space correctly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok someone is smoking it.<br />
1) Above claims UK uses 15 years your link 20-25 (that sound exact) for calcualtions.<br />
2) Why do wind mills in CA last so much longer than those in UK?<br />
3) The one item in the link that did read true, was that if you place turbine too close together they don&#8217;t as well if they are space correctly.</p>
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