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	<title>Comments on: Surcharges In Germany Should Be At Least 15.6 Cents</title>
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	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
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		<title>By: Karl-Friedrich Lenz</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187652</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Karl-Friedrich Lenz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Oct 2013 01:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187652</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, I actually mean that solar panels can produce energy for centuries. We will of course have to wait quite a long time to find out if that is true.

At the degradation of 0.5 percent per year of the best solar panels now, they still deliver over 60 percent after the first century.

I discussed this in some detail in this post at my blog in September 2012:

http://k.lenz.name/LB/?p=7507]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I actually mean that solar panels can produce energy for centuries. We will of course have to wait quite a long time to find out if that is true.</p>
<p>At the degradation of 0.5 percent per year of the best solar panels now, they still deliver over 60 percent after the first century.</p>
<p>I discussed this in some detail in this post at my blog in September 2012:</p>
<p><a href="http://k.lenz.name/LB/?p=7507" rel="nofollow">http://k.lenz.name/LB/?p=7507</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187490</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187490</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Fossil fuel costs&quot; normally would mean the price per unit of fossil fuel, not expenditure on fossil fuels.


And while fossil fuel purchases might have gone up following Germany&#039;s announced exit from nuclear generation their cost of electricity has dropped based on the falling price charged industrial users.


It&#039;s widely accepted that Germany&#039;s cost of generating electricity has been dropping but that decreased cost is not being passed on to residential users.


Some of that price stickiness seems to be a result of long term purchase agreements which have locked in high sales prices while generation costs have been dropping thanks to wind and solar on Germany&#039;s grid.


Wind and solar combined to reduce the amount spent for fossil fuels by 8 billion euros in 2012.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Fossil fuel costs&#8221; normally would mean the price per unit of fossil fuel, not expenditure on fossil fuels.</p>
<p>And while fossil fuel purchases might have gone up following Germany&#8217;s announced exit from nuclear generation their cost of electricity has dropped based on the falling price charged industrial users.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s widely accepted that Germany&#8217;s cost of generating electricity has been dropping but that decreased cost is not being passed on to residential users.</p>
<p>Some of that price stickiness seems to be a result of long term purchase agreements which have locked in high sales prices while generation costs have been dropping thanks to wind and solar on Germany&#8217;s grid.</p>
<p>Wind and solar combined to reduce the amount spent for fossil fuels by 8 billion euros in 2012.</p>
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		<title>By: A Real Libertarian</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187486</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A Real Libertarian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 19:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187486</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Peak oil? Really? Look at what US production has done.&quot;


Stayed the same, but costing much more to produce thereby requiring a price of $70-$80 to make a profit?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Peak oil? Really? Look at what US production has done.&#8221;</p>
<p>Stayed the same, but costing much more to produce thereby requiring a price of $70-$80 to make a profit?</p>
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		<title>By: Steeple</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187479</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steeple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 19:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187479</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bob, where did I say the price of European nat gas went up when the Germans began to shut nukes? The author asserts that the amount of GDP dedicated to fossil fuel consumption has jumped, but without having any understanding of how much more nat gas Germany is importing in a post nuke world.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, where did I say the price of European nat gas went up when the Germans began to shut nukes? The author asserts that the amount of GDP dedicated to fossil fuel consumption has jumped, but without having any understanding of how much more nat gas Germany is importing in a post nuke world.</p>
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		<title>By: Steeple</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187480</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steeple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 19:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187480</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nuke power was by and large replaced with Russian nat gas fed to gas turbines. Where did you think the substituted electricity came from?

Peak oil? Really? Look at what US production has done.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nuke power was by and large replaced with Russian nat gas fed to gas turbines. Where did you think the substituted electricity came from?</p>
<p>Peak oil? Really? Look at what US production has done.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187459</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 16:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187459</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Germany&#039;s manager magazine, a journal not exactly friendly to renewables, reported last night that German retail power consumers &quot;might not see much of an increase at all&quot; next year. Indeed, some customers might even see prices go down.

We already mentioned yesterday that EnBW, the fourth largest power provider in the country, does not plan to increase its retail prices at all for &quot;most&quot; of its customers. 

Last night, manager magazine added Lichblick (the largest green power provider, but still a relatively small fish), which expects prices to remain constant. Unfortunately, RWE and Vattenfall, two of the other three big utilities, did not wish to make any forecasts, and Eon (the other member of the Big Four) was apparently not contacted.

The article also cites Energy Brainpool (about whom I have also already written), which estimates that lower power procurement costs currently range from 0.57 to 1.97 cents – compared to an increase in the renewables surcharge of 0.96 cents. 

Interestingly, new photovoltaics only makes up 0.08 cents of that increase.
Other cost items, such as grid fees, could raise the retail rate, however, and too much offshore wind would also make things more expensive.&quot;

http://www.renewablesinternational.net/german-retail-prices-may-remain-unchanged/150/537/73949/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Germany&#8217;s manager magazine, a journal not exactly friendly to renewables, reported last night that German retail power consumers &#8220;might not see much of an increase at all&#8221; next year. Indeed, some customers might even see prices go down.</p>
<p>We already mentioned yesterday that EnBW, the fourth largest power provider in the country, does not plan to increase its retail prices at all for &#8220;most&#8221; of its customers. </p>
<p>Last night, manager magazine added Lichblick (the largest green power provider, but still a relatively small fish), which expects prices to remain constant. Unfortunately, RWE and Vattenfall, two of the other three big utilities, did not wish to make any forecasts, and Eon (the other member of the Big Four) was apparently not contacted.</p>
<p>The article also cites Energy Brainpool (about whom I have also already written), which estimates that lower power procurement costs currently range from 0.57 to 1.97 cents – compared to an increase in the renewables surcharge of 0.96 cents. </p>
<p>Interestingly, new photovoltaics only makes up 0.08 cents of that increase.<br />
Other cost items, such as grid fees, could raise the retail rate, however, and too much offshore wind would also make things more expensive.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.renewablesinternational.net/german-retail-prices-may-remain-unchanged/150/537/73949/" rel="nofollow">http://www.renewablesinternational.net/german-retail-prices-may-remain-unchanged/150/537/73949/</a></p>
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		<title>By: A Real Libertarian</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187398</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A Real Libertarian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 09:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187398</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Closing nuke plants means more oil is imported how?

&quot;And cherry picking the year 2002 as a baseline, just before all 
commodity prices moved up significantly in value as emerging markets 
really kicked in.&quot;

Not all commodities increased in price, solar panels for instance have become much cheaper.


Plus, how is acknowledging peak oil &quot;cherry picking&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Closing nuke plants means more oil is imported how?</p>
<p>&#8220;And cherry picking the year 2002 as a baseline, just before all<br />
commodity prices moved up significantly in value as emerging markets<br />
really kicked in.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not all commodities increased in price, solar panels for instance have become much cheaper.</p>
<p>Plus, how is acknowledging peak oil &#8220;cherry picking&#8221;?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: A Real Libertarian</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187396</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A Real Libertarian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 09:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187396</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Karl means the knowledge and price decreases will payoff for centuries.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Karl means the knowledge and price decreases will payoff for centuries.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Hans</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187393</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 08:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187393</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Another problem in Germany is that the low prices in the market are not passed on to normal costumers. Partially because a large part of the electricity has been bought years in advance, but I suspect the electricity distributors also make a nice little extra profit.

Regarding the industry exemptions, it look like they apply the  general tactic of right wing politicians to deal with working government programs that they don&#039;t like on ideological grounds. As soon as they are in power they start to de-fund and or change the programs until they don&#039;t work properly any more. Then they say: Government is bad at doing this task, let&#039;s cancel he program and let the market take over.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another problem in Germany is that the low prices in the market are not passed on to normal costumers. Partially because a large part of the electricity has been bought years in advance, but I suspect the electricity distributors also make a nice little extra profit.</p>
<p>Regarding the industry exemptions, it look like they apply the  general tactic of right wing politicians to deal with working government programs that they don&#8217;t like on ideological grounds. As soon as they are in power they start to de-fund and or change the programs until they don&#8217;t work properly any more. Then they say: Government is bad at doing this task, let&#8217;s cancel he program and let the market take over.</p>
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		<title>By: Hans</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187392</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 08:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187392</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Fukushima disaster occurred because the grid connection was lost and the back generator did not work. In Fukushima this happened to be caused by an earthquake and a tsunami. Since the German reactors are of the same type as the Japanese, and there are many other things that can cause the grid outage and back-up failure, Merkels decision is very understandable.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Fukushima disaster occurred because the grid connection was lost and the back generator did not work. In Fukushima this happened to be caused by an earthquake and a tsunami. Since the German reactors are of the same type as the Japanese, and there are many other things that can cause the grid outage and back-up failure, Merkels decision is very understandable.</p>
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		<title>By: armatus</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187385</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[armatus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 06:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187385</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i disagree with this analysis. the surcharge grows 18!!! % this year. and that on already very high electricity costs for households. this is a challenge for people making an average income, not to mention those millions who make far less then that.
Now, on the other hand prices on the exchange in Leipzig are at the low levels of 2005. And thanks to Merkel, thousands of huge, medium and now even small corp. have been exempt from the surcharge. so these guys not just profit from record low electr. prices when they buy directly from the exchange, but also from not paying the surcharge. 
Keep in mind that those 0.8% are payed by the minority consumers of electricity. if those others would have to pay as well, that number would easily skyrocket. people are willing to pay a bit more for clean energy, but if this divide becomes too big, they might change their mind.

although i have to say since 1/3 of germans voted for merkel they really have no reason whatsoever to complain about higher prices^^]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i disagree with this analysis. the surcharge grows 18!!! % this year. and that on already very high electricity costs for households. this is a challenge for people making an average income, not to mention those millions who make far less then that.<br />
Now, on the other hand prices on the exchange in Leipzig are at the low levels of 2005. And thanks to Merkel, thousands of huge, medium and now even small corp. have been exempt from the surcharge. so these guys not just profit from record low electr. prices when they buy directly from the exchange, but also from not paying the surcharge.<br />
Keep in mind that those 0.8% are payed by the minority consumers of electricity. if those others would have to pay as well, that number would easily skyrocket. people are willing to pay a bit more for clean energy, but if this divide becomes too big, they might change their mind.</p>
<p>although i have to say since 1/3 of germans voted for merkel they really have no reason whatsoever to complain about higher prices^^</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187366</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 02:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187366</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So you&#039;re suggesting that when Germany announced that it would start closing nuclear plants the price of natural gas went up for all EU27 countries?

How does that work?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you&#8217;re suggesting that when Germany announced that it would start closing nuclear plants the price of natural gas went up for all EU27 countries?</p>
<p>How does that work?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Steeple</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187362</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steeple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 01:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187362</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What a ridiculous piece of poor analysis. Of course fossil fuel costs went up dramatically, as Germany took elective step of closing their nukes, earthquakes in Germany being quite the menace.

And cherry picking the year 2002 as a baseline, just before all commodity prices moved up significantly in value as emerging markets really kicked in.

Analysis like this would get an F in an undergrad stats class.

Moral obligation? What a compelling argument. How about Germany spend some money on defense spending after the US has carried Europe for the past 60+ years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a ridiculous piece of poor analysis. Of course fossil fuel costs went up dramatically, as Germany took elective step of closing their nukes, earthquakes in Germany being quite the menace.</p>
<p>And cherry picking the year 2002 as a baseline, just before all commodity prices moved up significantly in value as emerging markets really kicked in.</p>
<p>Analysis like this would get an F in an undergrad stats class.</p>
<p>Moral obligation? What a compelling argument. How about Germany spend some money on defense spending after the US has carried Europe for the past 60+ years.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald Brakels</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187320</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronald Brakels]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Oct 2013 21:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187320</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I always suspected they were keeping the best panels for themselves.  But regardless of the minor decades/centuries confusion, some good points are made.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always suspected they were keeping the best panels for themselves.  But regardless of the minor decades/centuries confusion, some good points are made.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: GazzerG</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187317</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[GazzerG]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Oct 2013 21:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187317</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They clearly make panels to last in Germany :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They clearly make panels to last in Germany <img src="http://cleantechnica.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" class="wp-smiley" /></p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/surcharges-germany-least-15-6-cents/#comment-187310</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Oct 2013 20:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57881#comment-187310</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;centuries to come&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;centuries to come&#8221;?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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