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	<title>Comments on: Cleantech Transition Is Happening, Costs Dropping Off An Icy Cliff</title>
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	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
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		<title>By: Felix Hoenikker</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187985</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Felix Hoenikker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Oct 2013 00:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://i0.wp.com/cleantechnica.com/files/2012/05/china_solar_pv-e1336041127972.png?resize=500%2C359]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://i0.wp.com/cleantechnica.com/files/2012/05/china_solar_pv-e1336041127972.png?resize=500%2C359" rel="nofollow">http://i0.wp.com/cleantechnica.com/files/2012/05/china_solar_pv-e1336041127972.png?resize=500%2C359</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187960</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Oct 2013 19:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187960</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Please, no links without an explanation of what you are linking.

If it&#039;s worth linking then it&#039;s worth describing.

(I&#039;m not opening this one.  One was enough.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please, no links without an explanation of what you are linking.</p>
<p>If it&#8217;s worth linking then it&#8217;s worth describing.</p>
<p>(I&#8217;m not opening this one.  One was enough.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187959</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Oct 2013 19:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187959</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m keen on the idea that we should operate from a basis of facts, and not team loyalty.

I fully accept that China has been aggressive about capturing market share and that they may have done some things which are more than &quot;acceptable aggressiveness&quot;.   But at the same time we need to realize that many/most countries also push the limits from time to time.

If China has done things like slip money to their solar manufacturers so that they can sell product at a loss into other markets and destroy other countries&#039; manufacturing then that should not be tolerated.  But if China is doing nothing more than what other countries are doing then we have no right to attack China for doing what we are also doing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m keen on the idea that we should operate from a basis of facts, and not team loyalty.</p>
<p>I fully accept that China has been aggressive about capturing market share and that they may have done some things which are more than &#8220;acceptable aggressiveness&#8221;.   But at the same time we need to realize that many/most countries also push the limits from time to time.</p>
<p>If China has done things like slip money to their solar manufacturers so that they can sell product at a loss into other markets and destroy other countries&#8217; manufacturing then that should not be tolerated.  But if China is doing nothing more than what other countries are doing then we have no right to attack China for doing what we are also doing.</p>
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		<title>By: Felix Hoenikker</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187958</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Felix Hoenikker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Oct 2013 18:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187958</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No mistake this chart is dominated by chinese companies
http://blogs-images.forbes.com/tomkonrad/files/2012/06/GTM-Efficiency-Performance.png]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No mistake this chart is dominated by chinese companies<br />
<a href="http://blogs-images.forbes.com/tomkonrad/files/2012/06/GTM-Efficiency-Performance.png" rel="nofollow">http://blogs-images.forbes.com/tomkonrad/files/2012/06/GTM-Efficiency-Performance.png</a></p>
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		<title>By: Felix Hoenikker</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187957</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Felix Hoenikker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Oct 2013 18:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187957</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[thats just the bank loans, there are many other loans and subsidies these companies received from various government entities. But it sounds like you&#039;re keen on the idea that China was aimed at market share.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thats just the bank loans, there are many other loans and subsidies these companies received from various government entities. But it sounds like you&#8217;re keen on the idea that China was aimed at market share.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187949</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Oct 2013 17:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187949</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the link GTM states that both the US and China gave their solar companies low cost loans.  

&quot;... the U.S. DOE loan program has spent more than $40 billion on a 
portfolio of greentech firms and approximately $10 billion on solar.

	The difference is that, to some extent, the U.S. is betting on new, 
unproven technologies, while China is banking on the expansion of proven
 crystalline solar technologies.&quot;


Looks from the graph that China invested ~$30 billion to the US&#039;s $50 billion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the link GTM states that both the US and China gave their solar companies low cost loans.  </p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230; the U.S. DOE loan program has spent more than $40 billion on a<br />
portfolio of greentech firms and approximately $10 billion on solar.</p>
<p>	The difference is that, to some extent, the U.S. is betting on new,<br />
unproven technologies, while China is banking on the expansion of proven<br />
 crystalline solar technologies.&#8221;</p>
<p>Looks from the graph that China invested ~$30 billion to the US&#8217;s $50 billion.</p>
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		<title>By: Felix Hoenikker</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187943</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Felix Hoenikker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Oct 2013 16:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187943</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/chart-of-the-day-solyndra-edition]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/chart-of-the-day-solyndra-edition" rel="nofollow">http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/chart-of-the-day-solyndra-edition</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Felix Hoenikker</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187801</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Felix Hoenikker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187801</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[thank you]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thank you</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ivor O'Connor</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187536</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ivor O'Connor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Oct 2013 02:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187536</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bob clearly won this argument.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob clearly won this argument.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ivor O'Connor</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187477</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ivor O'Connor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187477</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[He is probably going to do it himself to avoid soft costs. No sense throwing your money away.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He is probably going to do it himself to avoid soft costs. No sense throwing your money away.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187461</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 17:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187461</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[US current lowest price 55c/W, average 70c/W.
http://pvinsights.com/

&quot;50 dollar cents  a Kwh&quot; - that doesn&#039;t make sense.  $50/1,000 watts = 5c/W. 
And the &quot;h&quot; shouldn&#039;t be there.

Do you mean 50 (US/Euro?) cents per watt?  
And, if so, what sort of shipping costs?

I think you&#039;d have trouble installing a 12,000,000 watt system for $6,000.  Looks like that pesky &quot;k&quot; krept in again.  

A 12 kW system could be installed in Europe for under $24,000 based on what I&#039;ve heard are best prices.  The price in China is around $12,000, reports are that they are installing for a little more than $1/W.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>US current lowest price 55c/W, average 70c/W.<br />
<a href="http://pvinsights.com/" rel="nofollow">http://pvinsights.com/</a></p>
<p>&#8220;50 dollar cents  a Kwh&#8221; &#8211; that doesn&#8217;t make sense.  $50/1,000 watts = 5c/W.<br />
And the &#8220;h&#8221; shouldn&#8217;t be there.</p>
<p>Do you mean 50 (US/Euro?) cents per watt?<br />
And, if so, what sort of shipping costs?</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;d have trouble installing a 12,000,000 watt system for $6,000.  Looks like that pesky &#8220;k&#8221; krept in again.  </p>
<p>A 12 kW system could be installed in Europe for under $24,000 based on what I&#8217;ve heard are best prices.  The price in China is around $12,000, reports are that they are installing for a little more than $1/W.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: A Real Libertarian</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187460</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A Real Libertarian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 16:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187460</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s $0.50 a Watt. And you&#039;re forgetting soft costs in there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s $0.50 a Watt. And you&#8217;re forgetting soft costs in there.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Will E</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187457</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Will E]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 16:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187457</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[solar panels from China. 50 dollar cents  a Kwh. I m not a company, but can buy solar panels  from China myself. they send it to me to Rotterdam in the Netherlands.
must be possible in the USA also,
next year  12,000 kwh solar rooftop. for 6000 dollars.
hurray]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>solar panels from China. 50 dollar cents  a Kwh. I m not a company, but can buy solar panels  from China myself. they send it to me to Rotterdam in the Netherlands.<br />
must be possible in the USA also,<br />
next year  12,000 kwh solar rooftop. for 6000 dollars.<br />
hurray</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: A Real Libertarian</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187401</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A Real Libertarian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 09:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187401</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[At least they&#039;re not playing as dirty as the Imperial Powers did in the 19th century.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least they&#8217;re not playing as dirty as the Imperial Powers did in the 19th century.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187389</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 06:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187389</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, a &quot;negative interest rate&quot; would qualify as an unfair practice.  I&#039;m not sure how that would work unless they mean that interest rate was set at a number lower than inflation.

(Of course we&#039;re doing that right now for banks.)

Making credit available, not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, a &#8220;negative interest rate&#8221; would qualify as an unfair practice.  I&#8217;m not sure how that would work unless they mean that interest rate was set at a number lower than inflation.</p>
<p>(Of course we&#8217;re doing that right now for banks.)</p>
<p>Making credit available, not.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: mds</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187386</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mds]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 06:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187386</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here Bob:

&quot;We found that real interest rates on loans for the Chinese companies in our analysis were significantly lower than those for non-Chinese companies. When adjusted, all eight Chinese firms appeared to be paying negative real rates. Furthermore, Chinese manufacturers have relatively easy access to large amounts of loans. Borrowing has supported massive capacity growth, including the ability to purchase turnkey manufacturing lines in established technologies. The availability of large amounts of revolving credit also makes it possible for Chinese companies to avoid market limitations on expansion during a time of inadequate demand growth.&quot;

Again: &quot;all eight Chinese firms appeared to be paying negative real rates&quot;
Know of any negative loan rates in the USA?
Predator capitalism.  Take over the market by selling at a loss and driving other competitors out, then you can set your  price nearly anywhere you like.  Not ok.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here Bob:</p>
<p>&#8220;We found that real interest rates on loans for the Chinese companies in our analysis were significantly lower than those for non-Chinese companies. When adjusted, all eight Chinese firms appeared to be paying negative real rates. Furthermore, Chinese manufacturers have relatively easy access to large amounts of loans. Borrowing has supported massive capacity growth, including the ability to purchase turnkey manufacturing lines in established technologies. The availability of large amounts of revolving credit also makes it possible for Chinese companies to avoid market limitations on expansion during a time of inadequate demand growth.&#8221;</p>
<p>Again: &#8220;all eight Chinese firms appeared to be paying negative real rates&#8221;<br />
Know of any negative loan rates in the USA?<br />
Predator capitalism.  Take over the market by selling at a loss and driving other competitors out, then you can set your  price nearly anywhere you like.  Not ok.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: mds</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187384</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mds]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 06:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187384</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, they are both right.  We subsidize solar and wind unfairly.  China to a much higher degree as Felix says.  They pretty much engaged in flat out predatory capitalism.  The Chinese are not dummies, smart move on industries that are going to be huge ...while most of our congress still doesn&#039;t understand this and was arguing then about whether incandescent bulbs should really be made illegal.  Who cares if we make whale oil lamps illegal?  Idiots.
Sorry Bob, China plays a dirty game.  So do we, just not nearly to the same degree.  There is no way I&#039;d take a companies manufacturing to China.  It&#039;s a short term profit play.  They&#039;re setup to take your tech and give it to Chinese companies.  Watch what happens to companies doing that over the next few years.  Smart for China.  Not so much for us.
Up side is more solar and wind is still good for all of us and they are pushing it hard.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, they are both right.  We subsidize solar and wind unfairly.  China to a much higher degree as Felix says.  They pretty much engaged in flat out predatory capitalism.  The Chinese are not dummies, smart move on industries that are going to be huge &#8230;while most of our congress still doesn&#8217;t understand this and was arguing then about whether incandescent bulbs should really be made illegal.  Who cares if we make whale oil lamps illegal?  Idiots.<br />
Sorry Bob, China plays a dirty game.  So do we, just not nearly to the same degree.  There is no way I&#8217;d take a companies manufacturing to China.  It&#8217;s a short term profit play.  They&#8217;re setup to take your tech and give it to Chinese companies.  Watch what happens to companies doing that over the next few years.  Smart for China.  Not so much for us.<br />
Up side is more solar and wind is still good for all of us and they are pushing it hard.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: mds</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187382</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mds]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 05:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The USA carried the solar and wind balls almost exclusively for how many decades?  That technology comes originally from here.  Japan and then Germany subsidized and carried solar PV after Regan gutted those businesses in the USA.  China is a very recent contributor.  Yes, I&#039;m going to give all four countries and some other (e.g. Australia) a hand.  You should too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The USA carried the solar and wind balls almost exclusively for how many decades?  That technology comes originally from here.  Japan and then Germany subsidized and carried solar PV after Regan gutted those businesses in the USA.  China is a very recent contributor.  Yes, I&#8217;m going to give all four countries and some other (e.g. Australia) a hand.  You should too.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187359</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 00:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187359</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fine.  My level of proof is different than yours.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fine.  My level of proof is different than yours.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Felix Hoenikker</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/17/cleantech-transition-happening-costs-dropping-icy-cliff/#comment-187351</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Felix Hoenikker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Oct 2013 00:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=57396#comment-187351</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[bob stop it]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bob stop it</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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