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	<title>Comments on: Compressed Air Energy Storage To Grow Dramatically Over The Next Decade</title>
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	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/27/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-grow-dramatically-over-the-next-decade/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/27/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-grow-dramatically-over-the-next-decade/#comment-179017</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Aug 2013 02:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=55639#comment-179017</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you are willing to find a use for the heat why not the cold. Think about a large building chillers that run at night to be used to cool during the day, but on a bigger scale. Think all the AC at Disney World or a city core. You seal/insulate part of the mine and store the cold.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are willing to find a use for the heat why not the cold. Think about a large building chillers that run at night to be used to cool during the day, but on a bigger scale. Think all the AC at Disney World or a city core. You seal/insulate part of the mine and store the cold.</p>
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		<title>By: RevPhil Manke</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/27/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-grow-dramatically-over-the-next-decade/#comment-178948</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RevPhil Manke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Aug 2013 19:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=55639#comment-178948</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Then consider that energy used to power an AC system in the summer will be enhanced by the expansion of that same air when used for E generation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then consider that energy used to power an AC system in the summer will be enhanced by the expansion of that same air when used for E generation.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/27/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-grow-dramatically-over-the-next-decade/#comment-178822</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2013 21:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=55639#comment-178822</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[LightSail is projecting a 30% loss while storing the heat.


Giving up the heat is going to take efficiency pretty low.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LightSail is projecting a 30% loss while storing the heat.</p>
<p>Giving up the heat is going to take efficiency pretty low.</p>
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		<title>By: Kiwiiano</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/27/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-grow-dramatically-over-the-next-decade/#comment-178818</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kiwiiano]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2013 21:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=55639#comment-178818</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Apparently air bladders submerged in a lake or the sea are the most cost efficient form of energy storage. There will still be losses due to the compressed air being heated but the accumulated losses from motors/compressors/generators/etc are no worse than alternative systems and the technology is simple and easily applied. It allows for big volumes of compressed air rather than high pressures, a good way of taking the peaks and troughs out of solar/wind/tidal energy supplies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently air bladders submerged in a lake or the sea are the most cost efficient form of energy storage. There will still be losses due to the compressed air being heated but the accumulated losses from motors/compressors/generators/etc are no worse than alternative systems and the technology is simple and easily applied. It allows for big volumes of compressed air rather than high pressures, a good way of taking the peaks and troughs out of solar/wind/tidal energy supplies.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/27/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-grow-dramatically-over-the-next-decade/#comment-178805</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2013 19:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=55639#comment-178805</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[True for gas turbines.  Less so for gas thermal systems.  The turbine part of a combined cycle plant can go full speed in 15 minutes or less, the thermal part takes a few hours.


Gas is a usable short term fill-in for wind and solar.  We can&#039;t use it long term, it still puts a lot of GHG into the air and we probably don&#039;t have a long term supply.


Storage should replace NG and, hopefully, soon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True for gas turbines.  Less so for gas thermal systems.  The turbine part of a combined cycle plant can go full speed in 15 minutes or less, the thermal part takes a few hours.</p>
<p>Gas is a usable short term fill-in for wind and solar.  We can&#8217;t use it long term, it still puts a lot of GHG into the air and we probably don&#8217;t have a long term supply.</p>
<p>Storage should replace NG and, hopefully, soon.</p>
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		<title>By: JamesWimberley</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/27/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-grow-dramatically-over-the-next-decade/#comment-178801</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JamesWimberley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2013 18:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=55639#comment-178801</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[NB: ¨,, it’s important to note that coal, nuclear, and thermal natural gas power plants are slow to adjust...¨
Untrue for natural gas plants, which can be easily designed to ramp quickly. Since they are also cheap, reasonably clean (locally), and efficient, gas is the real long-term complement/competitor to renewables, especially for that difficult last 20% of the load.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NB: ¨,, it’s important to note that coal, nuclear, and thermal natural gas power plants are slow to adjust&#8230;¨<br />
Untrue for natural gas plants, which can be easily designed to ramp quickly. Since they are also cheap, reasonably clean (locally), and efficient, gas is the real long-term complement/competitor to renewables, especially for that difficult last 20% of the load.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/27/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-grow-dramatically-over-the-next-decade/#comment-178794</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2013 18:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=55639#comment-178794</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We could be looking at two versions of CAES.

One in which the captured heat is stored as hot water and used to reheat the air.  This is likely best for smaller scale, more frequent turnover storage.  A company called LightSource is working on CAES with captured heat built on shipping container scale.  This could be a good solution for moving supply to demand during the daily cycle.

Modular, factory built, easy to transport and site.

One in which we store very large amounts of air for the occasional times when we need a lot of supplemental generation.  For when wind and solar inputs are way down for multiple days.

If the heat could be captured and used, say in an industrial process, the gas saved by the factory could then be used to reheat the stored air on its way to the turbines.

Use the underground chamber, abandoned mine and build a factory next to it, one that needs significant heat. 

We&#039;d have &#039;deep backup&#039; storage which would be filled with only the cheapest of electricity.  The compression heat would be used as produced.  Avoided gas could reheat the stored air.  And if we ran out of stored air we could still run the turbines with gas and atmospheric air.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We could be looking at two versions of CAES.</p>
<p>One in which the captured heat is stored as hot water and used to reheat the air.  This is likely best for smaller scale, more frequent turnover storage.  A company called LightSource is working on CAES with captured heat built on shipping container scale.  This could be a good solution for moving supply to demand during the daily cycle.</p>
<p>Modular, factory built, easy to transport and site.</p>
<p>One in which we store very large amounts of air for the occasional times when we need a lot of supplemental generation.  For when wind and solar inputs are way down for multiple days.</p>
<p>If the heat could be captured and used, say in an industrial process, the gas saved by the factory could then be used to reheat the stored air on its way to the turbines.</p>
<p>Use the underground chamber, abandoned mine and build a factory next to it, one that needs significant heat. </p>
<p>We&#8217;d have &#8216;deep backup&#8217; storage which would be filled with only the cheapest of electricity.  The compression heat would be used as produced.  Avoided gas could reheat the stored air.  And if we ran out of stored air we could still run the turbines with gas and atmospheric air.</p>
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		<title>By: eject</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/27/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-grow-dramatically-over-the-next-decade/#comment-178789</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[eject]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=55639#comment-178789</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t want to be that guy but I am not that optimistic with those numbers. They are only achievable under certain conditions (a bit like those MPG figures). 

In real grid cycles they are sadly lower, still capturing some of the heat is better then nothing and a lot better then no storage. As long as it can compete with gas turbines its fine.

I looked a lot into this technology since in theory you can just seal old mine shafts and pressurize them. That promises multiple GWh* per spot and next to no impact on the landscape. But doing it on this scale basically requires you to have a usage for that heat or you pay a hefty price. I really do like this idea since a lot of Germany looks like a swiss cheese underneath and it would be so easy and elegant if it weren&#039;t for this thermodynamic.

*There is a gas power plant &quot;McIntosh&quot; in Alabama US that can utilises  CAES. It stores up to 2860 MWh in 538000 m³ (a proper mineshaft is a lot bigger) which can be released over 26h at a max rate of 110MW. Note, this thing needs to burn gas, it basically offsets the compressor losses of the gas turbine by using the air that was compressed earlier but this is still storages.  There is an older one of those in Germany although storing way less air.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t want to be that guy but I am not that optimistic with those numbers. They are only achievable under certain conditions (a bit like those MPG figures). </p>
<p>In real grid cycles they are sadly lower, still capturing some of the heat is better then nothing and a lot better then no storage. As long as it can compete with gas turbines its fine.</p>
<p>I looked a lot into this technology since in theory you can just seal old mine shafts and pressurize them. That promises multiple GWh* per spot and next to no impact on the landscape. But doing it on this scale basically requires you to have a usage for that heat or you pay a hefty price. I really do like this idea since a lot of Germany looks like a swiss cheese underneath and it would be so easy and elegant if it weren&#8217;t for this thermodynamic.</p>
<p>*There is a gas power plant &#8220;McIntosh&#8221; in Alabama US that can utilises  CAES. It stores up to 2860 MWh in 538000 m³ (a proper mineshaft is a lot bigger) which can be released over 26h at a max rate of 110MW. Note, this thing needs to burn gas, it basically offsets the compressor losses of the gas turbine by using the air that was compressed earlier but this is still storages.  There is an older one of those in Germany although storing way less air.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/27/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-grow-dramatically-over-the-next-decade/#comment-178787</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=55639#comment-178787</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thus the &quot;new&quot; systems that recover/reuse about 70% of the heat. See above picture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thus the &#8220;new&#8221; systems that recover/reuse about 70% of the heat. See above picture.</p>
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		<title>By: eject</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/27/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-grow-dramatically-over-the-next-decade/#comment-178785</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[eject]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=55639#comment-178785</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem with compressed air storage is that a substantial amount of the work that you have to put in results in the gas getting hot. This energy is lost in most cases. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with compressed air storage is that a substantial amount of the work that you have to put in results in the gas getting hot. This energy is lost in most cases. </p>
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		<title>By: Ivor O'Connor</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/27/compressed-air-energy-storage-to-grow-dramatically-over-the-next-decade/#comment-178760</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ivor O'Connor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Aug 2013 15:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=55639#comment-178760</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wouldn&#039;t it be great to buy a tank about the size of your car and be able to store enough energy to power your house for a week...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t it be great to buy a tank about the size of your car and be able to store enough energy to power your house for a week&#8230;</p>
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