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	<title>Comments on: Tesla Teases On EV Quick Charge But Fuel Cells Could Deliver The Goods</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2014 06:27:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: AhmetA</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-229880</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AhmetA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2014 16:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-229880</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wherever you produce hydrogen you have to  transfer it to consumers and it will be costly. Transportation cost already high for gas  and it is higher for hydrogen. If you can succeding to produce same energy with electricity or hydrogen you have to add transportation cost to hydrogen]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wherever you produce hydrogen you have to  transfer it to consumers and it will be costly. Transportation cost already high for gas  and it is higher for hydrogen. If you can succeding to produce same energy with electricity or hydrogen you have to add transportation cost to hydrogen</p>
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		<title>By: QKodiak</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-175532</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[QKodiak]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Aug 2013 20:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-175532</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anybody who has studied hydrogen fuel cell (HFC) vehicle technology will tell that they are not the answer. Pure EVs can offer a better experience because of the smaller system footprint and cost less. The Tesla Model S has a frunk and huge trunk where other EVs have that area full of electrical components, an ICE, or hydrogen fuel cells.


HFCs are roughly two and a half times more efficient than their ICE-powered variants, but less than a pure EV. Then you factor in the KW used to produce hydrogen and energy used to transport and store it, HFC tech&#039;s net efficiency is much lower than Pure EV Tech.
It&#039;s much more efficient to generate electricity, transmit it through power lines, put it through a charger, and into an EV&#039;s battery than generating energy, transmitting it, using it to produce hydrogen, compressing it, transporting it, storing it, and pumping it into a HFC vehicle; which BTW already has a battery comparable in size to a pure EV. But it also has large hydrogen tanks, fuel cells, and other electric system components making the system large, heavy, expensive, and complicated.


Then there is the infrastructure issue. Hydrogen stations are much more expensive to make and take up more space than a fast charge station like Tesla&#039;s upgradeable Supercharger stations. A low cost Level II EV charger can be installed nearly anywhere. It&#039;s cheaper to make pure EVs; their infrastructure is far cheaper and can be expanded more quickly and more densely; and the tech is constantly improving. Why would you invest in hydrogen?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anybody who has studied hydrogen fuel cell (HFC) vehicle technology will tell that they are not the answer. Pure EVs can offer a better experience because of the smaller system footprint and cost less. The Tesla Model S has a frunk and huge trunk where other EVs have that area full of electrical components, an ICE, or hydrogen fuel cells.</p>
<p>HFCs are roughly two and a half times more efficient than their ICE-powered variants, but less than a pure EV. Then you factor in the KW used to produce hydrogen and energy used to transport and store it, HFC tech&#8217;s net efficiency is much lower than Pure EV Tech.<br />
It&#8217;s much more efficient to generate electricity, transmit it through power lines, put it through a charger, and into an EV&#8217;s battery than generating energy, transmitting it, using it to produce hydrogen, compressing it, transporting it, storing it, and pumping it into a HFC vehicle; which BTW already has a battery comparable in size to a pure EV. But it also has large hydrogen tanks, fuel cells, and other electric system components making the system large, heavy, expensive, and complicated.</p>
<p>Then there is the infrastructure issue. Hydrogen stations are much more expensive to make and take up more space than a fast charge station like Tesla&#8217;s upgradeable Supercharger stations. A low cost Level II EV charger can be installed nearly anywhere. It&#8217;s cheaper to make pure EVs; their infrastructure is far cheaper and can be expanded more quickly and more densely; and the tech is constantly improving. Why would you invest in hydrogen?</p>
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		<title>By: Ad van der Meer</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-173621</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ad van der Meer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jul 2013 08:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-173621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Whenever the advantages of FCEV&#039;s are discussed I (almost) never see the fact that a FCEV still needs a battery.
The Hyundai ix35 FCEV has a 24 kWh battery on board. 



Switching from gas to hydrogen is like switching from cocaine to heroine. You might be switching dealer, but you&#039;re still addicted!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whenever the advantages of FCEV&#8217;s are discussed I (almost) never see the fact that a FCEV still needs a battery.<br />
The Hyundai ix35 FCEV has a 24 kWh battery on board. </p>
<p>Switching from gas to hydrogen is like switching from cocaine to heroine. You might be switching dealer, but you&#8217;re still addicted!</p>
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		<title>By: Ivor O'Connor</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-173576</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ivor O'Connor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 21:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-173576</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The electric cost is obviously free since it is excess that can not be absorbed by the grid. The cost of the equipment to produce the methane must surely be less than the methane itself? (I hope.) I&#039;d check out http://www.renewablesinternational.net/worlds-largest-p2g-facility-ramps-up/150/537/68394/ and ask for costs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The electric cost is obviously free since it is excess that can not be absorbed by the grid. The cost of the equipment to produce the methane must surely be less than the methane itself? (I hope.) I&#8217;d check out <a href="http://www.renewablesinternational.net/worlds-largest-p2g-facility-ramps-up/150/537/68394/" rel="nofollow">http://www.renewablesinternational.net/worlds-largest-p2g-facility-ramps-up/150/537/68394/</a> and ask for costs.</p>
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		<title>By: anti_banker</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-173575</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anti_banker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 21:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-173575</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No matter how hydrogen is generated (even totally &#039;cleanly&#039;), there is the issue of having to build an expensive, nationwide hydrogen refilling network, compared to battery electric cars which already have the electric grid almost everywhere. You would also have to store high pressure hydrogen onboard every vehicle making it dangerous (no matter how much they have promised that these dangers have been &#039;reduced&#039;). Let&#039;s not go back to the stupid times of George W Bush.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No matter how hydrogen is generated (even totally &#8216;cleanly&#8217;), there is the issue of having to build an expensive, nationwide hydrogen refilling network, compared to battery electric cars which already have the electric grid almost everywhere. You would also have to store high pressure hydrogen onboard every vehicle making it dangerous (no matter how much they have promised that these dangers have been &#8216;reduced&#8217;). Let&#8217;s not go back to the stupid times of George W Bush.</p>
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		<title>By: Ivor O'Connor</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-173571</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ivor O'Connor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 20:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-173571</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is this article meant to be troll bait? Calling Tesla a PR machine is not fair. Tesla delivers.


So the author does not see any expensive problems with the creation and storage of hydrogen? She only sees the fuel cells as a problem? Things must be improving faster than I can follow...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is this article meant to be troll bait? Calling Tesla a PR machine is not fair. Tesla delivers.</p>
<p>So the author does not see any expensive problems with the creation and storage of hydrogen? She only sees the fuel cells as a problem? Things must be improving faster than I can follow&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-173569</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 20:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-173569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Any idea what the cost is?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any idea what the cost is?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ivor O'Connor</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-173568</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ivor O'Connor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 20:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-173568</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s not far away at all. Germany already dumps excess wind into methane generation. Maybe in 10 years it will be common place in many areas across our planet to dump the excess into methane.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not far away at all. Germany already dumps excess wind into methane generation. Maybe in 10 years it will be common place in many areas across our planet to dump the excess into methane.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-173523</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 16:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-173523</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sure.  We could build PHEVs with fuel cells rather than ICEs.


It will come down to cost.  Will it be cheaper to build personal vehicles with high capacity batteries or to use fewer batteries and a ICE or fuel cell?


Batteries have a very large advantage in that a lot of energy is lost converting electricity to hydrogen.  That would make the cost of a hydrogen FCEV more expensive per mile.


And then we&#039;d have to build a hydrogen infrastructure which would further increase costs.  If we used hydrogen only as a range extender on long trips we could minimize the cost of hydrogen infrastructure by needing far less than if we tried to drive on hydrogen 100% of the time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure.  We could build PHEVs with fuel cells rather than ICEs.</p>
<p>It will come down to cost.  Will it be cheaper to build personal vehicles with high capacity batteries or to use fewer batteries and a ICE or fuel cell?</p>
<p>Batteries have a very large advantage in that a lot of energy is lost converting electricity to hydrogen.  That would make the cost of a hydrogen FCEV more expensive per mile.</p>
<p>And then we&#8217;d have to build a hydrogen infrastructure which would further increase costs.  If we used hydrogen only as a range extender on long trips we could minimize the cost of hydrogen infrastructure by needing far less than if we tried to drive on hydrogen 100% of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Hue</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-173521</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Hue]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 16:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-173521</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why do we need to choose between batteries and fuel cells? Would it be feasible to have both: a smaller battery (e.g., ~25kWh) for 95%+ of typical driving, and a fuel cell as range extender? There is already an aluminum-air &quot;battery&quot; that is really conceptually closer to a fuel cell than to a electrochemical battery. I&#039;m not sure of the economics of such a solution, but big batteries have drawbacks too (cost, weight, recyclability, etc.). Just a thought.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do we need to choose between batteries and fuel cells? Would it be feasible to have both: a smaller battery (e.g., ~25kWh) for 95%+ of typical driving, and a fuel cell as range extender? There is already an aluminum-air &#8220;battery&#8221; that is really conceptually closer to a fuel cell than to a electrochemical battery. I&#8217;m not sure of the economics of such a solution, but big batteries have drawbacks too (cost, weight, recyclability, etc.). Just a thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-173519</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 15:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-173519</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Are we allowed to use the full cost of natural gas?  To add in the cost of climate change caused by the carbon we&#039;re bringing to the surface and pumping into the atmosphere?

If we include external costs then the math becomes quite different.
--

Hydrogen cracked from water using renewable energy is going to track the cost of renewable energy.


This graphic shows where energy is lost with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles vs. EVs.  The cheaper the electricity input, the cheaper the hydrogen.  (But it makes more sense to go the EV route.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are we allowed to use the full cost of natural gas?  To add in the cost of climate change caused by the carbon we&#8217;re bringing to the surface and pumping into the atmosphere?</p>
<p>If we include external costs then the math becomes quite different.<br />
&#8212;</p>
<p>Hydrogen cracked from water using renewable energy is going to track the cost of renewable energy.</p>
<p>This graphic shows where energy is lost with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles vs. EVs.  The cheaper the electricity input, the cheaper the hydrogen.  (But it makes more sense to go the EV route.)</p>
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		<title>By: eject</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-173503</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[eject]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 14:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-173503</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fuels cell are also known as fool cell. There large scale use will happen around the same time as large scale magnetic contained fusion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fuels cell are also known as fool cell. There large scale use will happen around the same time as large scale magnetic contained fusion.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Picoallen</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-173498</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Picoallen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 13:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-173498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It would be useful to see a plot of the cost of producing hydrogen or methane over time as the technologies have progressed. Presumably at some time in the future it may become cheaper to manufacture a gas substitute from renewable electricity than to frack it. But realistically how far away is that? The costs of solar and wind have dropped and continue to do so at astounding rates. Is electricity to hydrogen/methane conversion following a similar but slower curve?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be useful to see a plot of the cost of producing hydrogen or methane over time as the technologies have progressed. Presumably at some time in the future it may become cheaper to manufacture a gas substitute from renewable electricity than to frack it. But realistically how far away is that? The costs of solar and wind have dropped and continue to do so at astounding rates. Is electricity to hydrogen/methane conversion following a similar but slower curve?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: RobS</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/25/fuel-cell-electric-vehicles-could-go-mainstream-with-low-cost-catalyst/#comment-173491</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RobS]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jul 2013 11:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=54215#comment-173491</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fuel Cells are a much much more expensive way to use much much more energy to acheive the same thing as an EV can do presently. It would take a series of massive breakthrough in both fuel cell and hydrogen production technology and a simultaneous halt in any further improvements in batteries for fuel cells to ever even approach EV&#039;s.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fuel Cells are a much much more expensive way to use much much more energy to acheive the same thing as an EV can do presently. It would take a series of massive breakthrough in both fuel cell and hydrogen production technology and a simultaneous halt in any further improvements in batteries for fuel cells to ever even approach EV&#8217;s.</p>
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