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	<title>Comments on: New Breakthroughs in Anti-Solar Propaganda</title>
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	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
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		<title>By: Brian Richard</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-173211</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Richard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jul 2013 14:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-173211</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That 40% at the given time of generation.  You have to take a time factor.  Where the power comes from at night and in the early morning and late evening.  At that time stated in the article Germany was producing 40% of its power from solar but solar production would have to be sustained at higher levels for a long period of time in order to increase the over all production of electricity from solar to 40%.  

Eventually day time solar power production could be more than 100% of what is being used at that time.  In that case the power grid would need to be changed to allow storage for later use.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That 40% at the given time of generation.  You have to take a time factor.  Where the power comes from at night and in the early morning and late evening.  At that time stated in the article Germany was producing 40% of its power from solar but solar production would have to be sustained at higher levels for a long period of time in order to increase the over all production of electricity from solar to 40%.  </p>
<p>Eventually day time solar power production could be more than 100% of what is being used at that time.  In that case the power grid would need to be changed to allow storage for later use.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170534</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170534</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Solar in Germany has wiped out the midday peak on sunny days, leaving a morning peak and a late afternoon/evening peak.


Storage is cheaper if it is used more frequently.  More income is produced. 



Moving late night electricity to the morning peak and solar into the late day peak means that storage would get used twice a day.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solar in Germany has wiped out the midday peak on sunny days, leaving a morning peak and a late afternoon/evening peak.</p>
<p>Storage is cheaper if it is used more frequently.  More income is produced. </p>
<p>Moving late night electricity to the morning peak and solar into the late day peak means that storage would get used twice a day.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ivor O'Connor</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170501</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ivor O'Connor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 15:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170501</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes. Some places distribute &quot;information&quot; as if they were impartial while being bankrolled by large companies like Siemens. They find moles in large universities to spew the propaganda their way. And they muzzle the evidence to the contrary. 

One such place is the &quot;The Energy Collective&quot;. However it happens everywhere. Is there a centralized list of these propaganda sources?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. Some places distribute &#8220;information&#8221; as if they were impartial while being bankrolled by large companies like Siemens. They find moles in large universities to spew the propaganda their way. And they muzzle the evidence to the contrary. </p>
<p>One such place is the &#8220;The Energy Collective&#8221;. However it happens everywhere. Is there a centralized list of these propaganda sources?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Chris Aloise</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170491</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Aloise]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 14:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170491</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Living in Germany, the price of 1 Kw runs between 

Euro 1500-1700.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Living in Germany, the price of 1 Kw runs between </p>
<p>Euro 1500-1700.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ivor O'Connor</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170484</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ivor O'Connor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 13:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170484</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Hans</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170477</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170477</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Half true, on clear summer days the daytime prices on the German spot market are often lower than the nighttime prices]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Half true, on clear summer days the daytime prices on the German spot market are often lower than the nighttime prices</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: globi</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170459</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[globi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 09:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170459</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why do you need day time storage, when electricity is cheaper at night? 

Despite the fact that the Germany is already above 5% solar electricity, and despite the fact that electricity is cheaper at night, coal power plants are still producing more power during day time than at night.

Introducing day time storage would be very unwise, since it would only increase coal power demand!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do you need day time storage, when electricity is cheaper at night? </p>
<p>Despite the fact that the Germany is already above 5% solar electricity, and despite the fact that electricity is cheaper at night, coal power plants are still producing more power during day time than at night.</p>
<p>Introducing day time storage would be very unwise, since it would only increase coal power demand!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170436</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 06:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170436</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Balance of System


All the stuff aside from the panels.  Racks, inverter, wire, conduit, labor, permits, etc.


Just a few years back panel prices greatly exceeded the BOS stuff, now it&#039;s the other way around.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Balance of System</p>
<p>All the stuff aside from the panels.  Racks, inverter, wire, conduit, labor, permits, etc.</p>
<p>Just a few years back panel prices greatly exceeded the BOS stuff, now it&#8217;s the other way around.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ivor O'Connor</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170421</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ivor O'Connor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 04:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170421</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Karl-Friedrich writes &quot;And while it is true that there will be more and more time slots where demand can’t keep up with supply and “Germany will need to curtail non-solar capacity,” that’s kind of the idea (except the curtailing won’t be for “non-solar,” but for “non-renewable” sources). We want to get away from fossil fuel generation.&quot;


Here I was under the impression that energy in Germany was being sold at peak hours to neighboring countries at outrageous prices. Making Germany rich rich and richer. And anything that can&#039;t be used or sold is being taken up by the power-to-gas projects to supply the transportation industry. Germany is just laughing all the way to the bank while we try to justify what they do as &quot;possible&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl-Friedrich writes &#8220;And while it is true that there will be more and more time slots where demand can’t keep up with supply and “Germany will need to curtail non-solar capacity,” that’s kind of the idea (except the curtailing won’t be for “non-solar,” but for “non-renewable” sources). We want to get away from fossil fuel generation.&#8221;</p>
<p>Here I was under the impression that energy in Germany was being sold at peak hours to neighboring countries at outrageous prices. Making Germany rich rich and richer. And anything that can&#8217;t be used or sold is being taken up by the power-to-gas projects to supply the transportation industry. Germany is just laughing all the way to the bank while we try to justify what they do as &#8220;possible&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ivor O'Connor</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170419</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ivor O'Connor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 03:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170419</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Christian Roselund&#039;s states &quot;I don’t make that argument, because the cost of PV does not need to continue to collapse at the current rate for the industry to grow rapidly. In fact, as far as component costs, it would be a good thing for all of us in the industry if they didn’t, because they are currently below the cost of production.&quot;


We have seen articles here in Cleantechnica on how Germany is attempting to compete against China by automating the entire fabrication of PVs. Apparently Germany feels they can recapture the market and produce the PVs with machines cheaper than China can with slave labor. How then can the author Christian Roselund claim China is dumping when Germany thinks they can still out compete them fairly?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christian Roselund&#8217;s states &#8220;I don’t make that argument, because the cost of PV does not need to continue to collapse at the current rate for the industry to grow rapidly. In fact, as far as component costs, it would be a good thing for all of us in the industry if they didn’t, because they are currently below the cost of production.&#8221;</p>
<p>We have seen articles here in Cleantechnica on how Germany is attempting to compete against China by automating the entire fabrication of PVs. Apparently Germany feels they can recapture the market and produce the PVs with machines cheaper than China can with slave labor. How then can the author Christian Roselund claim China is dumping when Germany thinks they can still out compete them fairly?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ivor O'Connor</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170416</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ivor O'Connor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 03:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170416</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What is &quot;BOS&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is &#8220;BOS&#8221;?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170405</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 01:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170405</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Researchers at Cal Tech and Lawrence Livermore are saying that solar is going away?


Or that prices aren&#039;t coming down?


Or that other countries won&#039;t be able to install as cheaply as Germany can?


Oh, and what areas might they work in?  Not nuclear research by chance?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Researchers at Cal Tech and Lawrence Livermore are saying that solar is going away?</p>
<p>Or that prices aren&#8217;t coming down?</p>
<p>Or that other countries won&#8217;t be able to install as cheaply as Germany can?</p>
<p>Oh, and what areas might they work in?  Not nuclear research by chance?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Steeple</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170404</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steeple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 01:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170404</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hysterics like researchers at Cal Tech and Lawrence Livermore Labs? Sometimes it doesn&#039;t hurt to hear other points of view.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hysterics like researchers at Cal Tech and Lawrence Livermore Labs? Sometimes it doesn&#8217;t hurt to hear other points of view.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170368</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jul 2013 19:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170368</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You know what is hysterical to me?  The companies paying to distort the facts to you and I.  Listen, Solar isn&#039;t going away, it is getting cheaper, that won&#039;t change.  So why do smart companies pay millions of dollars to lie to you?  Why don&#039;t they invest that money into the technology and diversify their product offering making themselves even more powerful?  Guess what, solar is making regular German richer and their economy stronger.  And that just makes sense because the wealthier everyone is the better the economy will be.  Makes you wonder what the oil and gas companies are trying to accomplish doesn&#039;t it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know what is hysterical to me?  The companies paying to distort the facts to you and I.  Listen, Solar isn&#8217;t going away, it is getting cheaper, that won&#8217;t change.  So why do smart companies pay millions of dollars to lie to you?  Why don&#8217;t they invest that money into the technology and diversify their product offering making themselves even more powerful?  Guess what, solar is making regular German richer and their economy stronger.  And that just makes sense because the wealthier everyone is the better the economy will be.  Makes you wonder what the oil and gas companies are trying to accomplish doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170356</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jul 2013 18:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170356</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The €1000/kW is, I believe, the cost of &#039;fill up the roof&#039; installations on barns.  I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s with low efficiency panels, that might drive up BOS costs, but perhaps.


Apparently being able to fill the roof with panels is one way to bring down the price per watt cost.  It certainly spreads the cost of sale, setup and delivery costs over more watts.  Getting labor and equipment to the site costs.  A full roof array requires no more labor to run cable and hook to the grid than a smaller array.


I think we need a model where companies lease entire rooftops from home/business owners, fill the sunny slopes with panels, and sell power to the utility.  I suspect done right they could be competitive with utility sized solar.  Line up a bunch of roofs in a small area and send in specialized crews to do the various parts of the job.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The €1000/kW is, I believe, the cost of &#8216;fill up the roof&#8217; installations on barns.  I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s with low efficiency panels, that might drive up BOS costs, but perhaps.</p>
<p>Apparently being able to fill the roof with panels is one way to bring down the price per watt cost.  It certainly spreads the cost of sale, setup and delivery costs over more watts.  Getting labor and equipment to the site costs.  A full roof array requires no more labor to run cable and hook to the grid than a smaller array.</p>
<p>I think we need a model where companies lease entire rooftops from home/business owners, fill the sunny slopes with panels, and sell power to the utility.  I suspect done right they could be competitive with utility sized solar.  Line up a bunch of roofs in a small area and send in specialized crews to do the various parts of the job.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Shiggity</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170352</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shiggity]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jul 2013 18:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170352</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Solar PV is more like steel or glass or the chips that go into phones and computers.  Phones and computers are the finished products, akin to a solar array, not the panel.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solar PV is more like steel or glass or the chips that go into phones and computers.  Phones and computers are the finished products, akin to a solar array, not the panel.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jouni Valkonen</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170350</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jouni Valkonen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jul 2013 18:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170350</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That $2250/kW is probably the average price of solar. My source says that average price of solar is €1650/kW in Germany. That €1000/kW is the lowest price of solar using cheapest Chinese solar panels with low efficiency, but people usually prefer to buy little more expensive panels with higher efficiency and longer warranty.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That $2250/kW is probably the average price of solar. My source says that average price of solar is €1650/kW in Germany. That €1000/kW is the lowest price of solar using cheapest Chinese solar panels with low efficiency, but people usually prefer to buy little more expensive panels with higher efficiency and longer warranty.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170349</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jul 2013 18:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170349</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Solar panel manufacturing has matured to the point at which panels are not high margin products (not much profit per unit).


That means that overall company profits will be made based on volume and volume will be determined by price which is largely determined by manufacturer efficiency.


And that means that the weaker/less efficient manufacturers are being pushed out.  



It&#039;s something that happens with almost any emerging technology as they mature.  It happened with computers and with cell phones.  There were a lot of players along the way but only the strong survived.  And we got cheap technology out of the process.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solar panel manufacturing has matured to the point at which panels are not high margin products (not much profit per unit).</p>
<p>That means that overall company profits will be made based on volume and volume will be determined by price which is largely determined by manufacturer efficiency.</p>
<p>And that means that the weaker/less efficient manufacturers are being pushed out.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s something that happens with almost any emerging technology as they mature.  It happened with computers and with cell phones.  There were a lot of players along the way but only the strong survived.  And we got cheap technology out of the process.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Shiggity</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170345</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shiggity]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jul 2013 17:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170345</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Solar PV is a commodity, manufacturing commodities usually isn&#039;t super profitable.  It&#039;s what you do with the commodity that matters.  The money to be made in solar is developing large projects atm.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solar PV is a commodity, manufacturing commodities usually isn&#8217;t super profitable.  It&#8217;s what you do with the commodity that matters.  The money to be made in solar is developing large projects atm.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anothercoilgun</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/09/new-breakthroughs-in-anti-solar-propaganda/#comment-170341</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anothercoilgun]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jul 2013 17:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53760#comment-170341</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not fast enough.  Perhaps if the vast amount of solar companies would stop starting a business year one, taking federal grants year two, and filing for bankruptcy year 3, the price would come down in good speed to a good price.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not fast enough.  Perhaps if the vast amount of solar companies would stop starting a business year one, taking federal grants year two, and filing for bankruptcy year 3, the price would come down in good speed to a good price.</p>
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