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	<title>Comments on: GE&#8217;s Brilliant Wind Turbine &#8212; Wind Power Cheaper Than Coal Or Natural Gas (Part 1)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2014 08:17:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Ross_Wexford</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-183326</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ross_Wexford]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Sep 2013 22:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-183326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ireland&#039;s grid can currently accept up to 50% electricity generation by capricous  asynchronous wind turbines. This has been achieved without any special technical measures and with just one 300MW PHES. The grid has a max/min demand of around 5GW / 1.6GW from winter peak to summer night valley. Sufficient dynamic inertia is provided by running coal and some gas units at minimum load which wastes a considerable quantity of fuel pushing up the CO2 per kWh at times of high wind and low demand, but gets the job done.
Measures are being taken to move the max instanious wind penetration to 75%. Suggested is; a combination of lowering the standard of frequency control (from 0.5Hz/sec to 1Hz/sec) and using 10% of the cost of electricity to fund the purchase of system services. Should the higher RoCoF not be approved the SS pool could grow to perhaps 15% of the electricity market&#039;s annual value. 
Other major costs inherent in the move to reaching a target of 37% wind generated electricity are a REFIT price for wind power which pays wind farm owners considerably more than the true value of wind generated electricity to the grid, and a massive additional expenditure on extending the distribution and transmission networks so as to connect the many new wind farms. The technical challenges of getting a lot of wind power in a grid are often overstated by people with a vested interest in making things appear more difficult than they really are, it&#039;s just a matter of spending lots of money while drip feeding information to the consumer so as to keep them ignorant of the true cost. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ireland&#8217;s grid can currently accept up to 50% electricity generation by capricous  asynchronous wind turbines. This has been achieved without any special technical measures and with just one 300MW PHES. The grid has a max/min demand of around 5GW / 1.6GW from winter peak to summer night valley. Sufficient dynamic inertia is provided by running coal and some gas units at minimum load which wastes a considerable quantity of fuel pushing up the CO2 per kWh at times of high wind and low demand, but gets the job done.<br />
Measures are being taken to move the max instanious wind penetration to 75%. Suggested is; a combination of lowering the standard of frequency control (from 0.5Hz/sec to 1Hz/sec) and using 10% of the cost of electricity to fund the purchase of system services. Should the higher RoCoF not be approved the SS pool could grow to perhaps 15% of the electricity market&#8217;s annual value.<br />
Other major costs inherent in the move to reaching a target of 37% wind generated electricity are a REFIT price for wind power which pays wind farm owners considerably more than the true value of wind generated electricity to the grid, and a massive additional expenditure on extending the distribution and transmission networks so as to connect the many new wind farms. The technical challenges of getting a lot of wind power in a grid are often overstated by people with a vested interest in making things appear more difficult than they really are, it&#8217;s just a matter of spending lots of money while drip feeding information to the consumer so as to keep them ignorant of the true cost. </p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-172666</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jul 2013 21:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-172666</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[GE is marketing a gas turbine that is designed for wind/solar fill-in purposes.  That&#039;s likely to reduce inefficiency over other gas turbines.

That said, if Eos Systems is right and their zinc-air batteries can deliver stored off-peak electricity to peak hours for about a dime for storage/BoS costs then the life expectancy of gas peakers is likely limited.  Off-peak wind purchased at 2 to 6 cents and delivered to peak demand at 12 to 17 cents (Eos&#039;s numbers) significantly undercut peaking power at well over 20 cents per kWh.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GE is marketing a gas turbine that is designed for wind/solar fill-in purposes.  That&#8217;s likely to reduce inefficiency over other gas turbines.</p>
<p>That said, if Eos Systems is right and their zinc-air batteries can deliver stored off-peak electricity to peak hours for about a dime for storage/BoS costs then the life expectancy of gas peakers is likely limited.  Off-peak wind purchased at 2 to 6 cents and delivered to peak demand at 12 to 17 cents (Eos&#8217;s numbers) significantly undercut peaking power at well over 20 cents per kWh.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Sinclair</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-172204</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Sinclair]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jul 2013 14:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-172204</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[wind baggers are generally hostile to, and ignorant of, actual science, as this poster shows. Thanks for the demonstration, Mr. Wilson.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wind baggers are generally hostile to, and ignorant of, actual science, as this poster shows. Thanks for the demonstration, Mr. Wilson.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Sinclair</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-172203</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Sinclair]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jul 2013 14:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-172203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[wow. How does the heat go into the ocean. wow.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wow. How does the heat go into the ocean. wow.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Colin</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-172189</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Colin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jul 2013 13:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-172189</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s a little more nuanced than that. Gas turbines that ramp up quickly are typically much less efficient than their slower counterparts. Large, slow-starting GT&#039;s that recover exhaust heat can capture about 60% of the fuel energy. I believe nimble turbines are &lt;45%. Fast starts also stress GT&#039;s such that more frequent maintenance may be necessary]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a little more nuanced than that. Gas turbines that ramp up quickly are typically much less efficient than their slower counterparts. Large, slow-starting GT&#8217;s that recover exhaust heat can capture about 60% of the fuel energy. I believe nimble turbines are &lt;45%. Fast starts also stress GT&#039;s such that more frequent maintenance may be necessary</p>
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		<title>By: MorinMoss</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170754</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MorinMoss]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jul 2013 00:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170754</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The ETI link below says it&#039;s a 5-year project; I&#039;m mystified as to what could take so much time but I don&#039;t know very much about the technology involved but it&#039;s supposed to be simple.

http://www.eti.co.uk/news/article/eti_invest_14m_in_energy_storage_breakthrough_with_isentropic

And the membership of the ETI are some VERY big players who will have a minority share in Isentropic.
Not sure if that&#039;s supposed to reassure me or make my inner conspiracy theorist reach for the tinfoil.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ETI link below says it&#8217;s a 5-year project; I&#8217;m mystified as to what could take so much time but I don&#8217;t know very much about the technology involved but it&#8217;s supposed to be simple.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.eti.co.uk/news/article/eti_invest_14m_in_energy_storage_breakthrough_with_isentropic" rel="nofollow">http://www.eti.co.uk/news/article/eti_invest_14m_in_energy_storage_breakthrough_with_isentropic</a></p>
<p>And the membership of the ETI are some VERY big players who will have a minority share in Isentropic.<br />
Not sure if that&#8217;s supposed to reassure me or make my inner conspiracy theorist reach for the tinfoil.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170748</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170748</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m a bit disappointed in Isentropic.  They received some significant funding (&gt;$20 million) a year ago and they haven&#039;t built anything yet.  


With that sort of money they ought to be able to build one of their heat pumps and hook it up to a couple of insulated containers full of rocks and demonstrate their concept.


They don&#039;t need a huge demo project. People can do the math of using bigger boxes of rocks.  It&#039;s their efficiency claim that needs some proof.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a bit disappointed in Isentropic.  They received some significant funding (&gt;$20 million) a year ago and they haven&#8217;t built anything yet.  </p>
<p>With that sort of money they ought to be able to build one of their heat pumps and hook it up to a couple of insulated containers full of rocks and demonstrate their concept.</p>
<p>They don&#8217;t need a huge demo project. People can do the math of using bigger boxes of rocks.  It&#8217;s their efficiency claim that needs some proof.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: MorinMoss</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170739</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MorinMoss]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One storage tech that I hope will pan out is the Pumped Heat Electricity Storage (PHES) under development by Isentropic UK

http://www.isentropic.co.uk/our-phes-technology

Approx 70% efficient and based on gravel and argon but I don&#039;t see why they couldn&#039;t use nitrogen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One storage tech that I hope will pan out is the Pumped Heat Electricity Storage (PHES) under development by Isentropic UK</p>
<p><a href="http://www.isentropic.co.uk/our-phes-technology" rel="nofollow">http://www.isentropic.co.uk/our-phes-technology</a></p>
<p>Approx 70% efficient and based on gravel and argon but I don&#8217;t see why they couldn&#8217;t use nitrogen.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170704</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2013 17:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170704</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s a chart of all UK wind farms.  And nicely broken down by region.  Hughes claimed...

&quot;Analysis of site-specific performance reveals that the initial load factor of new UK onshore wind farms, normalized for wind availability and size, declined significantly from 2000 to 2011, especially in Scotland.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a chart of all UK wind farms.  And nicely broken down by region.  Hughes claimed&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;Analysis of site-specific performance reveals that the initial load factor of new UK onshore wind farms, normalized for wind availability and size, declined significantly from 2000 to 2011, especially in Scotland.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: MorinMoss</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170700</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MorinMoss]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2013 17:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170700</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hughes analysis was so wrong in just basic arithmetic that it boggles the mind. 

Here&#039;s a straightforward critique of his &quot;analysis&quot; 

http://energy-surprises.blogspot.ca/2013/02/are-wind-turbines-merely-icons-of.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hughes analysis was so wrong in just basic arithmetic that it boggles the mind. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a straightforward critique of his &#8220;analysis&#8221; </p>
<p><a href="http://energy-surprises.blogspot.ca/2013/02/are-wind-turbines-merely-icons-of.html" rel="nofollow">http://energy-surprises.blogspot.ca/2013/02/are-wind-turbines-merely-icons-of.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: MorinMoss</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170587</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MorinMoss]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2013 01:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170587</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good stuff. Wind turbine capacity factor is growing but I&#039;m not sure where the upper limit will be. I doubt it&#039;ll ever reach 60%.
However, better blade designs do seem to produce power in low-wind situations, which is very encouraging.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good stuff. Wind turbine capacity factor is growing but I&#8217;m not sure where the upper limit will be. I doubt it&#8217;ll ever reach 60%.<br />
However, better blade designs do seem to produce power in low-wind situations, which is very encouraging.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170562</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 22:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170562</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s the next five in order from Hughes&#039; spreadsheet.

There&#039;s simply no drop in capacity over time except for the 2010 low wind year event.

Unless the first ten wind farms in the database are not typical of the farms in general Hughes made a large mistake.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the next five in order from Hughes&#8217; spreadsheet.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s simply no drop in capacity over time except for the 2010 low wind year event.</p>
<p>Unless the first ten wind farms in the database are not typical of the farms in general Hughes made a large mistake.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: MorinMoss</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170432</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MorinMoss]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 05:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170432</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[His analysis of the Danish farm output was so obviously wrong, he had me doubting my own arithmetic.

2010 in the UK was a very low year for wind as the REF themselves point out and use as a club against wind power, citing that volatility as contributing to uncertainty and higher prices.

http://www.ref.org.uk/publications/217-low-wind-power-output-2010



I suppose coal and gas never suffer from volatility in pricing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>His analysis of the Danish farm output was so obviously wrong, he had me doubting my own arithmetic.</p>
<p>2010 in the UK was a very low year for wind as the REF themselves point out and use as a club against wind power, citing that volatility as contributing to uncertainty and higher prices.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ref.org.uk/publications/217-low-wind-power-output-2010" rel="nofollow">http://www.ref.org.uk/publications/217-low-wind-power-output-2010</a></p>
<p>I suppose coal and gas never suffer from volatility in pricing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170429</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 05:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170429</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s what the press release for Hughes&#039; paper  linked in another comment says...

&quot;This groundbreaking study applies rigorous statistical analysis to years of actual wind farm performance data from wind farms in both the UK and in Denmark. The results show that after allowing for variations in wind speed and site characteristics the average load factor of wind farms declines substantially as they get older, probably due to wear and tear. By 10 years of age the contribution of an average UK wind farm to meeting electricity demand has declined by a third.&quot;

http://www.ref.org.uk/attachments/article/281/ref%20pr%2019%2012%2012.pdf

Now, I&#039;ve charted only five farms so far.  And I haven&#039;t allowed for variations in wind speed nor have I done a statistical analysis.  But my eyes tell me that there is no substantial decline in two out of the three farms for which we have nine years data.

There is what seems to be a low wind year in 2010 when all farms drop in output but then pop back up in 2011.

Outside of 2010, good old Four Burrows is flat as a board.  (At least as flat as the piece of jatoba I&#039;ve been working on today.)

I&#039;ll try to chart up another batch or two and let us see if Hughes was correct.

I&#039;m pretty sure if one averaged the first couple of years and then the last two years and compared they could report a big drop over time, but Hughes wouldn&#039;t have done anything like that, would he?

Of course, he did report that Danish wind farms lose output capacity over time when they don&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s what the press release for Hughes&#8217; paper  linked in another comment says&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;This groundbreaking study applies rigorous statistical analysis to years of actual wind farm performance data from wind farms in both the UK and in Denmark. The results show that after allowing for variations in wind speed and site characteristics the average load factor of wind farms declines substantially as they get older, probably due to wear and tear. By 10 years of age the contribution of an average UK wind farm to meeting electricity demand has declined by a third.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ref.org.uk/attachments/article/281/ref%20pr%2019%2012%2012.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ref.org.uk/attachments/article/281/ref%20pr%2019%2012%2012.pdf</a></p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;ve charted only five farms so far.  And I haven&#8217;t allowed for variations in wind speed nor have I done a statistical analysis.  But my eyes tell me that there is no substantial decline in two out of the three farms for which we have nine years data.</p>
<p>There is what seems to be a low wind year in 2010 when all farms drop in output but then pop back up in 2011.</p>
<p>Outside of 2010, good old Four Burrows is flat as a board.  (At least as flat as the piece of jatoba I&#8217;ve been working on today.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll try to chart up another batch or two and let us see if Hughes was correct.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure if one averaged the first couple of years and then the last two years and compared they could report a big drop over time, but Hughes wouldn&#8217;t have done anything like that, would he?</p>
<p>Of course, he did report that Danish wind farms lose output capacity over time when they don&#8217;t.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170425</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 04:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170425</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, I started working on the UK farm data.  It takes a bit of time and I&#039;ve only done the first five farms listed.

I used only years that had a least 11 months. Only 1 year for 2 separate farms include 11.  The rest 12.

I tossed years with less than 11 months.  They were almost all the last few months of the first year or the first 3 months of 2012.  Including early/late parts of a year might be misleading due to seasonal differences.

I&#039;ll post the graph and discuss it in a follow up comment.

Here&#039;s the key -
Haf U I - Hafoty Ucha I &amp; III (F9 L3)
Hare H - Hare Hill Wind Farm - A (F9 L3)
Alata - Altahullion Wind Farm (F8 L2)
Four A - Four Burrows Wind Farm - A
Thorf - Thorfinn Wind Energy Project (NM1500)

(Had a flawed chart up for a few minutes.  Deleted it and posted the correct one.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I started working on the UK farm data.  It takes a bit of time and I&#8217;ve only done the first five farms listed.</p>
<p>I used only years that had a least 11 months. Only 1 year for 2 separate farms include 11.  The rest 12.</p>
<p>I tossed years with less than 11 months.  They were almost all the last few months of the first year or the first 3 months of 2012.  Including early/late parts of a year might be misleading due to seasonal differences.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll post the graph and discuss it in a follow up comment.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the key &#8211;<br />
Haf U I &#8211; Hafoty Ucha I &amp; III (F9 L3)<br />
Hare H &#8211; Hare Hill Wind Farm &#8211; A (F9 L3)<br />
Alata &#8211; Altahullion Wind Farm (F8 L2)<br />
Four A &#8211; Four Burrows Wind Farm &#8211; A<br />
Thorf &#8211; Thorfinn Wind Energy Project (NM1500)</p>
<p>(Had a flawed chart up for a few minutes.  Deleted it and posted the correct one.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170420</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jul 2013 03:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170420</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, I started working on the UK farm data.  It takes a bit of time and I&#039;ve only done the first five farms listed.

I used only years that had a least 11 months. Only 1 year for 2 separate farms include 11.  The rest 12.

I tossed years with less than 11 months.  They were almost all the last few months of the first year or the first 3 months of 2012.  Including early/late parts of a year might be misleading due to seasonal differences.

I&#039;ll post the graph and discuss it in a follow up comment....


Here&#039;s the key -
Haf U I - Hafoty Ucha I &amp; III (F9 L3)
Hare H - Hare Hill Wind Farm - A (F9 L3)
Alata - Altahullion Wind Farm (F8 L2)
Four A - Four Burrows Wind Farm - A
Thorf - Thorfinn Wind Energy Project (NM1500)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I started working on the UK farm data.  It takes a bit of time and I&#8217;ve only done the first five farms listed.</p>
<p>I used only years that had a least 11 months. Only 1 year for 2 separate farms include 11.  The rest 12.</p>
<p>I tossed years with less than 11 months.  They were almost all the last few months of the first year or the first 3 months of 2012.  Including early/late parts of a year might be misleading due to seasonal differences.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll post the graph and discuss it in a follow up comment&#8230;.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the key &#8211;<br />
Haf U I &#8211; Hafoty Ucha I &amp; III (F9 L3)<br />
Hare H &#8211; Hare Hill Wind Farm &#8211; A (F9 L3)<br />
Alata &#8211; Altahullion Wind Farm (F8 L2)<br />
Four A &#8211; Four Burrows Wind Farm &#8211; A<br />
Thorf &#8211; Thorfinn Wind Energy Project (NM1500)</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170166</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jul 2013 16:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unfortunately most comment editors don&#039;t allow one to post data in columns.  I have no idea why not.


I&#039;ve downloaded the UK data but haven&#039;t cranked through it yet.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately most comment editors don&#8217;t allow one to post data in columns.  I have no idea why not.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve downloaded the UK data but haven&#8217;t cranked through it yet.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: MorinMoss</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170120</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MorinMoss]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jul 2013 11:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170120</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The formatting was a bit better on my PC but it looks like the tabs were replaced by a single space when I saved it as a comment.
Do you have graphs for the UK farms? I&#039;ve not had time to crunch that raw data. Thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The formatting was a bit better on my PC but it looks like the tabs were replaced by a single space when I saved it as a comment.<br />
Do you have graphs for the UK farms? I&#8217;ve not had time to crunch that raw data. Thanks.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170068</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jul 2013 03:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170068</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey, Peter!  I found out that there is something behind your claim that some turbines are being taken down after 10 to 15 years.  

You got the time line correct.  But wrong on the reason.

Turns out that several European wind farms are being upgraded.  Older, smaller, shorter turbines are being taken down and replaces with more powerful units.  By 2020 the UK will have upgraded some of its farms from 1,524 GWh to 8,221 GWh.  That&#039;s happening where the best sites were used early on with first generation turbines.

But here&#039;s some more good news for you.  Those turbines aren&#039;t being scrapped.  They&#039;re being sold on to other countries which have larger area and not enough capital to purchase state of the art turbines.  Those turbines will produce electricity for another couple of decades before they get recycled.

So much good news.  I&#039;m sure you&#039;re smiling now....

http://www.evwind.es/2013/07/02/repowering-gives-new-life-to-old-wind-sites/34106]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, Peter!  I found out that there is something behind your claim that some turbines are being taken down after 10 to 15 years.  </p>
<p>You got the time line correct.  But wrong on the reason.</p>
<p>Turns out that several European wind farms are being upgraded.  Older, smaller, shorter turbines are being taken down and replaces with more powerful units.  By 2020 the UK will have upgraded some of its farms from 1,524 GWh to 8,221 GWh.  That&#8217;s happening where the best sites were used early on with first generation turbines.</p>
<p>But here&#8217;s some more good news for you.  Those turbines aren&#8217;t being scrapped.  They&#8217;re being sold on to other countries which have larger area and not enough capital to purchase state of the art turbines.  Those turbines will produce electricity for another couple of decades before they get recycled.</p>
<p>So much good news.  I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re smiling now&#8230;.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.evwind.es/2013/07/02/repowering-gives-new-life-to-old-wind-sites/34106" rel="nofollow">http://www.evwind.es/2013/07/02/repowering-gives-new-life-to-old-wind-sites/34106</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/29/ges-brilliant-1-6-100-clean-green-grid-ready-wind-power-cheaper-than-coal-or-natural-gas/#comment-170065</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jul 2013 03:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=53278#comment-170065</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for posting that.  It jogged my memory and I recalled the graph I had for Danish offshore wind which puts lie to low capacity and capacity dropping off after a few years.


It&#039;s down the page a ways.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for posting that.  It jogged my memory and I recalled the graph I had for Danish offshore wind which puts lie to low capacity and capacity dropping off after a few years.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s down the page a ways.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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