Comments on: Energy Storage Breakthrough: Large And Powerful Redox Flow Battery Developed

By: Zachary Shahan

Zachary Shahan — Sun, 31 Mar 2013 11:16:00 +0000

Exactly. For some people, their whole goal is achieved if they simply create doubt. If they do not actually provide any facts or evidence or useful information, it does not matter. And these people love to ask for sources but really don’t like to supply any.

By: Andrew me

Andrew me — Thu, 28 Mar 2013 22:30:00 +0000

Bob i think in this debate you won the argument very clearly actually, I hate when people ask for evidence or links to research and then when you provide it they start going on about how biased it is, with people like that you cannot win. It is far better to ignore them and let them troll someone else. I for one do not believe half of what i read on the internet but you have provided two different sources for your argument and i think that is more than enough to show that you have at least investigated the situation,unlike your opponent who seem to just want an argument.

By: Andrew me

Andrew me — Thu, 28 Mar 2013 22:22:00 +0000

well said .

By: slean guy

slean guy — Sat, 23 Mar 2013 13:47:00 +0000

no we are not. that is the difference between bench modeling (proof of concept) demonstration then commercialization. its called validation (real world). there are a number of variables that affect life cycle and capacity. the information you have posted on here has been modeling not real world and none of the information explains any technology breakthrough that addresses capacity fade which is one component which affects life cycle. the energy density is so low on these types of batteries that they make no sense in certain applications even if 50% of what you state is true. there are other battery technologies which have better architecture (separate power / energy ratings) for grid storage

By: Bob_Wallace

Bob_Wallace — Sat, 23 Mar 2013 07:36:00 +0000

So now we’re playing chase stean’s goalpost?

Here’s your first post…

“lithium is not good for storage , only frequency regulation. Name me one lithium battery system that has run 6000 cycles and not been replaced at some point”

Named.

And now you’re insisting that you be shown installation data for a product that’s only a year old and would take a decade to prove itself in a real world application?

By: Otis11

Otis11 — Sat, 23 Mar 2013 04:15:00 +0000

Ok, you have an audience. I’m an electrical engineer with a good background in Chemistry. To be honest, though, I am not highly versed in different battery technology.

First, you reference some googling – Could I bother you to link the articles you mention? For arguments sake, my googling/your googling/Bob’s googling may all end up different.

Second – Teach me. Honestly – I’d love to learn this stuff. I’m passionate about technology, but if we’re pursuing the wrong ends with Li-ion, that’s fine, let’s chase something else. I just want to know.

By: slean guy

slean guy — Sat, 23 Mar 2013 01:32:00 +0000

depends on what market you are referring to. the transportation ? storage? i am referring to. grid storage therefore i question their stated testing in lab conditions and not real world. there have been none installed long enough in the field to be quoting things as fact

By: Zachary Shahan

Zachary Shahan — Sat, 23 Mar 2013 00:38:00 +0000

takes time to dominate a $10-billion market. http://cleantechnica.com/2013/03/22/lux-research-next-generation-batteries-eye-slice-of-10b-li-ion-market/

man, all of us humans are going to be very disappointed when we realized we were duped buying cell phones, tablets, computers, and EVs using lithium-ion batteries. i wonder when billions of people will wake up and see the light.

By: Zachary Shahan

Zachary Shahan — Sat, 23 Mar 2013 00:34:00 +0000

seriously, what is your agenda? you have dropped 0 references to useful articles, peer reviewed or not. you want us to simply take your word that a $10-billion market* is based on a technology we shouldn’t touch with a 10-ft pole? i’ve got experience stubbing my toe on a door, but i think doors are still pretty darn useful and aren’t going anywhere. that said, i’m not selling an alternative to doors.

* http://cleantechnica.com/2013/03/22/lux-research-next-generation-batteries-eye-slice-of-10b-li-ion-market/

By: Bob_Wallace

Bob_Wallace — Fri, 22 Mar 2013 18:46:00 +0000

Perhaps, but I’m still skeptical in your case…. ;o)

By: slean guy

slean guy — Fri, 22 Mar 2013 18:41:00 +0000

then this battery should be dominating the world of energy storage
(B*& C#^+) dude you are too easily fooled..

By: Bob_Wallace

Bob_Wallace — Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:34:00 +0000

Here’s what Toshiba states on their spec sheet for the SCiB.-

Long Life Cycle Characteristics – Exceptional long life is achieved by using new oxide-based materials. Capacity loss after 6,000 charge-discharge cycles is less than 20%.

Inherently Safe – The battery’s advanced safety features include Toshiba’s proprietary lithiumtitanate technology which prevents thermal runaway.

Fast Charge Rates – Capable of full recharge in <10 minutes (160 A, 8C charge rate), SCIB™ batteries increase customer up-time and productivity and enable efficient capture of regen energy.

Greater Usable Capacity – The battery provides up to a 100% usable range of SOC without compromising cycle life. This allows the customer to use more of the rated capacity and therefore use a smaller battery.

High Output Performance – SCiB™ batteries offer a power density nearly equivalent to that of ultra-capacitors. This ensures sufficient power output (160 A continuous) for high power application needs.

Superb Temperature Performance – The battery excels at temperatures as low as −30°C and up to 55°C. This provides excellent application performance in extreme environmental conditions.

Production – Producing the batteries on a state-of-the-art automated high volume production line

ensures that the customer receives the highest quality battery and stable supply to meet the most demanding application needs.

http://www.toshiba.com/ind/data/tag_files/SCiB_Brochure_5383.pdf

That's from a very major corporation which one would not expect to open itself to large and damaging lawsuits if their product does not perform as advertised.

And we've got two major automobile manufacturing companies using those Toshiba batteries in their EVs. It's hard to identify a company which puts more emphasis on quality than does Honda.

A web search for SCiB failure or fire turns up nothing.

Then, on the other side of the argument, we have someone who doesn't even post under their own name, and has nothing whatsoever to establish themselves as a credible source, claim that Toshiba is lying.

Who's a feller to believe?

By: slean guy

slean guy — Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:45:00 +0000

yes i do because i am knowledgeable in the area of batteries for energy storage; and you keep citing information frm sources with a vested interest. obviously you do not read and comprehend well either; go back to my statement about thermal runaway. i said nothing about an external heat source as of matter of fact i dispel d your theory about external heat. the battery cells and or systems do contain hydrocarbon materials. you are just some ball buster who knows nothing. there are many reasons a lithium battery will not cycle that long without cell failure and 20% cell loss is a lot when you may only use 50% depth of discharge (DOD)to get average performance from the battery. the # of cycles are a function of DOD and a best case scenario using 50% is maybe 3000. that is really not worth using the battery if DOD is any less. even at that rate lithium is too expensive to consider as a battery of the future

By: Bob_Wallace

Bob_Wallace — Fri, 22 Mar 2013 08:21:00 +0000

You have a very high opinion of yourself but you give no information that would lead anyone else to share it.

Unsupported claims carry no weight.

BTW, throw a couple of lithium ion batteries in a fire and see if they burn.

By: Bob_Wallace

Bob_Wallace — Fri, 22 Mar 2013 08:15:00 +0000

I should only post information from companies and people who are pushing non-lithium ion products?

The fact is, there are billions of lithium ion batteries in use today and we aren’t burning down our houses and offices with them. There are lithium ion battery powered EVs and PHEVs on the road and they aren’t bursting into flame.

Yes, lithium can burn. Yes, there have bee a few cases of lithium batteries in laptops catching fire but, as I posted, it is an extremely improbable event and seems largely to be a problem we have moved past.

Yes, lithium batteries have to be properly charged and properly protected against runaway discharged.

Fact is, lithium batteries are the best we have today and promise to improve over time. If something better comes to market then we will switch. At this point there is no proven non-flammable candidate to take lithium ion’s place.

By: slean guy

slean guy — Fri, 22 Mar 2013 04:32:00 +0000

you are joking right ? you keep citing articles or companies with a vested interest in lithium batteries. shame on you, tell that to the many utility installations that have caught fire or failed for one reason or another. Lithium a hydrocarbon based metal (flammable). thermal runaway (ignition) charge discharge (boom)

By: slean guy

slean guy — Fri, 22 Mar 2013 04:24:00 +0000

you know nothing about the battery chemistry of lithium. it is not exposure of high temperatures that is the problem it is due to the high energy content of the cells that high temperatures are created resulting in thermal runaway and that is due to the batteries potential. in other words it is inherent and it aint going away therefore all you can do is management it. stay away from books or articles you are clueless, by the way the failure rate you cited is bogus. under real world storage application with daily cycling and frequent discharge they suck. i do not need to cite anything when i have first hand knowledge of the testing. the market plce is also saying they suck no serious battery person will tell you lithium is the future of transportation and specifically storage applications for utility use

By: Bob_Wallace

Bob_Wallace — Thu, 21 Mar 2013 19:29:00 +0000

. “There’s a lot of mythology in the area of lithium-ion battery safety,” says Brian M. Barnett, a battery safety specialist at Lexington, Mass.-based technology development firm Tiax. Failure rates for rechargeable Li-ion batteries are on the order of one in 10 million cells, he says. “That’s not a reliability problem. It’s an exception.”

http://cen.acs.org/articles/91/i6/Assessing-Safety-Lithium-Ion-Batteries.html

By: Bob_Wallace

Bob_Wallace — Thu, 21 Mar 2013 19:25:00 +0000

A googling of “lithium battery cycle” didn’t enlighten me. Googling “lithium battery failures” told me what I already knew – if you expose them to high temperatures or short them out they will burn. Gasoline also burns.

Perhaps if you put up something other than “take my word for it:” you might stand a better chance of making your point.

We get a constant stream of people showing up here who talk through their neither regions.

By: slean guy

slean guy — Thu, 21 Mar 2013 18:38:00 +0000

like i said , PJM inside information they failed horribly and were not as quick to charge and discharge as some other technologies. the major thing was the cost to operate is not what is being reported either (much higher)