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	<title>Comments on: Fox Wind Power Fact Check</title>
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	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: MattyBumpo</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-138011</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MattyBumpo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2012 23:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-138011</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wind + pumped storage, where the pumped storage sites are cost-effective ones, provides superior economic and environmental returns to a utility than the wind+gas combination.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wind + pumped storage, where the pumped storage sites are cost-effective ones, provides superior economic and environmental returns to a utility than the wind+gas combination.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: MattyBumpo</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-138010</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MattyBumpo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2012 23:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-138010</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not sure how you read the chart as showing pumped storage as inefficient. Pumped storage is 80% efficient, which is quite good by storage standards and easily made up for by the speed and range of both absorbing and discharging power to the grid.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure how you read the chart as showing pumped storage as inefficient. Pumped storage is 80% efficient, which is quite good by storage standards and easily made up for by the speed and range of both absorbing and discharging power to the grid.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-137598</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2012 00:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-137598</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hooray for Lying! Hey everyone, lets pretend like the following doesn&#039;t exist: PV/ CSP technology, dynamos, piezoelectric devices, storage devices, steam turbines, etc...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hooray for Lying! Hey everyone, lets pretend like the following doesn&#8217;t exist: PV/ CSP technology, dynamos, piezoelectric devices, storage devices, steam turbines, etc&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-137524</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-137524</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Some points:


There is no reason why &quot;western Europe&quot; should be an isolated grid.  Europe is building toward a grid that reaches from Iceland to North Africa.  The wind will be blowing somewhere, hydro flowing, ....


There are at least four very promising new battery technologies which have proven themselves at the prototype level and two are going into production in the next few months.  If only one proves out we will have cheap, safe, abundant storage.


Germany&#039;s new coal burning plants are replacing (not adding to) the older plants that either have been or will soon be decommissioned. Moreover, by 2020, 18.5 gigawatts of coal power capacity will be decommissioned, whereas only 11.3 gigawatts will be newly installed.  


Furthermore those plants will be more efficient, releasing less CO2 per unit electricity produced than are the ones they are replacing.


]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some points:</p>
<p>There is no reason why &#8220;western Europe&#8221; should be an isolated grid.  Europe is building toward a grid that reaches from Iceland to North Africa.  The wind will be blowing somewhere, hydro flowing, &#8230;.</p>
<p>There are at least four very promising new battery technologies which have proven themselves at the prototype level and two are going into production in the next few months.  If only one proves out we will have cheap, safe, abundant storage.</p>
<p>Germany&#8217;s new coal burning plants are replacing (not adding to) the older plants that either have been or will soon be decommissioned. Moreover, by 2020, 18.5 gigawatts of coal power capacity will be decommissioned, whereas only 11.3 gigawatts will be newly installed.  </p>
<p>Furthermore those plants will be more efficient, releasing less CO2 per unit electricity produced than are the ones they are replacing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-137523</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-137523</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s an edit function.  There&#039;s no reason to leave such a hard to read comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s an edit function.  There&#8217;s no reason to leave such a hard to read comment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Asteroid Miner</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-137493</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Asteroid Miner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-137493</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with saveenergy.  Renewables are nothing more than an excuse to continue burning fossil fuels.  There is still only one way to get electricity without CO2, and that way is nuclear.  The only problem with nuclear is that there are people who fear it because they don&#039;t understand it.  The solution is education.  Nuclear is already the safest source of energy there is.  See clearnuclear.blogspot.com]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with saveenergy.  Renewables are nothing more than an excuse to continue burning fossil fuels.  There is still only one way to get electricity without CO2, and that way is nuclear.  The only problem with nuclear is that there are people who fear it because they don&#8217;t understand it.  The solution is education.  Nuclear is already the safest source of energy there is.  See clearnuclear.blogspot.com</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: saveenergy</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-137487</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[saveenergy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-137487</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[


Nicholas


 


You say - “Additionally, it’s
worth noting that the wind is always blowing somewhere. With a good grid, wind
from one region can easily be sent to another.”








Not so,
 at the moment the whole of Western Europe
is under the same weather system, very little wind power over 1000s of miles, it’s
been like this for 18 days, it is a frequent situation.


 


My local windfarm Llyn Alaw has a capacity factor of only
7.2% this mth !!!





If you want to get the true picture of the poor performance of
European wind, look on this German wind energy company’s production data site, (100s
of locations with 1000s of turbines !!)  http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/206488/rwe-innogy/sites/production-data-live/rwe-renewable-energy-live/   note; [It’s a manual refresh] – nb capacity in MW but output in kW


 


 


You also say – “Wind power
is useful. It can be stored. And it is one (very cheap) part of a broader
energy mix.”


You can only store small amounts of energy &amp; to do it is
both inefficient &amp; eye wateringly expensive.


 


E.g.; 


battery.     ≈ 85% Efficiency   cost = 31-43 €-cent/kWh  Dangerous, prone to fire


CAES       ≈ 50% Efficiency   cost = 13-27 €-cent/kWh


Flywheel, ≈ 90% Efficiency  
cost = 300-500 €-cent/kWh


Hydrogen, ≈ 40% Efficiency  
cost = 19-50 €-cent/kWh


Methane    ≈ 30% Efficiency   cost = 12-34 €-cent/kWh


 


 


ANNE


My favorite image is from Oxford University:
http://www.geog.ox.ac.uk/~dcurtis/NETA.html


It shows the real time generation of electricity in Britain
and how wind affects the other generators. The site refreshes automatically,
gives 7mths history. In ½hr slots.  


(you can switch the different fuels on/off &amp; zoom, -
follow the onscreen instructions)


Note how inefficient pumped storage is (bottom blue line)


 


STEFANO99


You say- “For how renewables work in the real world, all you
need to do is look at Germany
and their success. Can&#039;t hide facts as big as Germany&#039;s,
no matter how hard you try with BS.”


I agree, you can’t hide the facts, Germany
&amp; Denmark
are now building brown coal plants because the wind &amp; solar are unreliable
&amp; intermittent.


http://fossilfuel.energy-business-review.com/news/vattenfall-unit-starts-up-brown-coal-fired-power-plant-in-germany-151012


 


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-19/merkel-s-green-shift-forces-germany-to-burn-more-coal-energy.html
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas</p>
<p>You say &#8211; “Additionally, it’s<br />
worth noting that the wind is always blowing somewhere. With a good grid, wind<br />
from one region can easily be sent to another.”</p>
<p>Not so,<br />
 at the moment the whole of Western Europe<br />
is under the same weather system, very little wind power over 1000s of miles, it’s<br />
been like this for 18 days, it is a frequent situation.</p>
<p>My local windfarm Llyn Alaw has a capacity factor of only<br />
7.2% this mth !!!</p>
<p>If you want to get the true picture of the poor performance of<br />
European wind, look on this German wind energy company’s production data site, (100s<br />
of locations with 1000s of turbines !!)  <a href="http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/206488/rwe-innogy/sites/production-data-live/rwe-renewable-energy-live/" rel="nofollow">http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/206488/rwe-innogy/sites/production-data-live/rwe-renewable-energy-live/</a>   note; [It’s a manual refresh] – nb capacity in MW but output in kW</p>
<p>You also say – “Wind power<br />
is useful. It can be stored. And it is one (very cheap) part of a broader<br />
energy mix.”</p>
<p>You can only store small amounts of energy &amp; to do it is<br />
both inefficient &amp; eye wateringly expensive.</p>
<p>E.g.; </p>
<p>battery.     ≈ 85% Efficiency   cost = 31-43 €-cent/kWh  Dangerous, prone to fire</p>
<p>CAES       ≈ 50% Efficiency   cost = 13-27 €-cent/kWh</p>
<p>Flywheel, ≈ 90% Efficiency<br />
cost = 300-500 €-cent/kWh</p>
<p>Hydrogen, ≈ 40% Efficiency<br />
cost = 19-50 €-cent/kWh</p>
<p>Methane    ≈ 30% Efficiency   cost = 12-34 €-cent/kWh</p>
<p>ANNE</p>
<p>My favorite image is from Oxford University:<br />
<a href="http://www.geog.ox.ac.uk/~dcurtis/NETA.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.geog.ox.ac.uk/~dcurtis/NETA.html</a></p>
<p>It shows the real time generation of electricity in Britain<br />
and how wind affects the other generators. The site refreshes automatically,<br />
gives 7mths history. In ½hr slots.  </p>
<p>(you can switch the different fuels on/off &amp; zoom, &#8211;<br />
follow the onscreen instructions)</p>
<p>Note how inefficient pumped storage is (bottom blue line)</p>
<p>STEFANO99</p>
<p>You say- “For how renewables work in the real world, all you<br />
need to do is look at Germany<br />
and their success. Can&#8217;t hide facts as big as Germany&#8217;s,<br />
no matter how hard you try with BS.”</p>
<p>I agree, you can’t hide the facts, Germany<br />
&amp; Denmark<br />
are now building brown coal plants because the wind &amp; solar are unreliable<br />
&amp; intermittent.</p>
<p><a href="http://fossilfuel.energy-business-review.com/news/vattenfall-unit-starts-up-brown-coal-fired-power-plant-in-germany-151012" rel="nofollow">http://fossilfuel.energy-business-review.com/news/vattenfall-unit-starts-up-brown-coal-fired-power-plant-in-germany-151012</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-19/merkel-s-green-shift-forces-germany-to-burn-more-coal-energy.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-19/merkel-s-green-shift-forces-germany-to-burn-more-coal-energy.html</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: tibi stibi</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-137412</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tibi stibi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 02:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-137412</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[that IS a really cool image, it shows that the changes in power output are on all levels for all energy sources.
i would like to have to raw data so i could calculate what the difference of each energy source is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>that IS a really cool image, it shows that the changes in power output are on all levels for all energy sources.<br />
i would like to have to raw data so i could calculate what the difference of each energy source is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: StefanoR99</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-137401</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[StefanoR99]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-137401</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[These guys can bash renewables until they are blue in the face with their made up facts.

For how renewables work in the real world, all you need to do is look at Germany and their success. Can&#039;t hide facts as big as Germany&#039;s, no matter how hard you try with BS.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These guys can bash renewables until they are blue in the face with their made up facts.</p>
<p>For how renewables work in the real world, all you need to do is look at Germany and their success. Can&#8217;t hide facts as big as Germany&#8217;s, no matter how hard you try with BS.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: globi</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-137387</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[globi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2012 20:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-137387</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Storage is unnecessary and useless. The US already has over 500 GW of flexible capacity (mostly gas and hydro) to deal with variable demand: http://www.eia.gov/electricity/capacity/
and to back-up conventional power plants which can sometimes fail unexpectedly: http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/three-mile-island-nuclear-power-plant-shut-down-unexpectedly-thursday Thousands of renewable power plants (on comparable GW scale) never fail unexpectedly. Wind- and photovoltaic-power simply reduce gas and water consumption of existing gas and hydro power plants.
Renewable power plants deliver power all the time: Wind and photovoltaic power plants in Germany still produced over 50% of their average weekly energy production even in their worst production week: http://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/de/downloads/pdf-files/aktuelles/stromproduktion-aus-solar-und-windenergie-2012.pdf
In addition, it simply makes much more sense to electrify the fossil fuel heating sector with heat pumps and save fossil fuels than to invest in any storage systems and artificially produce hydrogen or methane or what not. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Storage is unnecessary and useless. The US already has over 500 GW of flexible capacity (mostly gas and hydro) to deal with variable demand: <a href="http://www.eia.gov/electricity/capacity/" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.gov/electricity/capacity/</a><br />
and to back-up conventional power plants which can sometimes fail unexpectedly: <a href="http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/three-mile-island-nuclear-power-plant-shut-down-unexpectedly-thursday" rel="nofollow">http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/three-mile-island-nuclear-power-plant-shut-down-unexpectedly-thursday</a> Thousands of renewable power plants (on comparable GW scale) never fail unexpectedly. Wind- and photovoltaic-power simply reduce gas and water consumption of existing gas and hydro power plants.<br />
Renewable power plants deliver power all the time: Wind and photovoltaic power plants in Germany still produced over 50% of their average weekly energy production even in their worst production week: <a href="http://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/de/downloads/pdf-files/aktuelles/stromproduktion-aus-solar-und-windenergie-2012.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/de/downloads/pdf-files/aktuelles/stromproduktion-aus-solar-und-windenergie-2012.pdf</a><br />
In addition, it simply makes much more sense to electrify the fossil fuel heating sector with heat pumps and save fossil fuels than to invest in any storage systems and artificially produce hydrogen or methane or what not. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-137385</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2012 20:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-137385</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Some wind farms are installing &quot;15 minutes&quot; of storage in order to allow them to sell blocks of power to utilities and avoid having to purchase expensive power to fulfill their contracts if the wind slows.

It&#039;s a difference between utility-owned wind farms and wind farms selling their power to the grid.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some wind farms are installing &#8220;15 minutes&#8221; of storage in order to allow them to sell blocks of power to utilities and avoid having to purchase expensive power to fulfill their contracts if the wind slows.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a difference between utility-owned wind farms and wind farms selling their power to the grid.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anne</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-137384</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-137384</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;They
 can even use a relatively small buffer energy storage system to back 
them up for 15 minutes while peaking natural gas power plants start to 
back them up.&quot;

This is inaccurate and persists the notion that wind energy is on/off (&#039;intermittent&#039;). It is not, it is a variable resource. Over the size of an average control area, wind power rises and drops slowly, giving power companies time to bring backup units on or off line. And it gets even better: wind energy is predictable, so they can schedule in advance.

My favourite image is: https://demanda.ree.es/generacion_acumulada.html 

It shows the real time generation of electricity in Spain and how wind affects the other generators. You can clearly see that wind only increases and diminishes in strength on a timescale of hours, not 15 minutes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;They<br />
 can even use a relatively small buffer energy storage system to back<br />
them up for 15 minutes while peaking natural gas power plants start to<br />
back them up.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is inaccurate and persists the notion that wind energy is on/off (&#8216;intermittent&#8217;). It is not, it is a variable resource. Over the size of an average control area, wind power rises and drops slowly, giving power companies time to bring backup units on or off line. And it gets even better: wind energy is predictable, so they can schedule in advance.</p>
<p>My favourite image is: <a href="https://demanda.ree.es/generacion_acumulada.html" rel="nofollow">https://demanda.ree.es/generacion_acumulada.html</a> </p>
<p>It shows the real time generation of electricity in Spain and how wind affects the other generators. You can clearly see that wind only increases and diminishes in strength on a timescale of hours, not 15 minutes.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Bailo</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/10/14/fox-wind-power-fact-check/#comment-137361</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Bailo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2012 18:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=43957#comment-137361</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Follow Germany&#039;s lead and couple renewable production with hydrogen storage for fuel cells.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Follow Germany&#8217;s lead and couple renewable production with hydrogen storage for fuel cells.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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