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	<title>Comments on: Oil &amp; Gas &#8212; Over 13 Times More in Historical Subsidies than Clean Energy</title>
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	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-191534</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Nov 2013 07:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-191534</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilverstein/2013/02/20/despite-difficulties-nuclear-energy-will-regain-strength/

Those nuclear &quot;subsidies&quot; are cleanup loans paid back by the utility. Not to mention that nuclear is four times more expensive than it has to be due to 70s regulations which add nothing to safety.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilverstein/2013/02/20/despite-difficulties-nuclear-energy-will-regain-strength/" rel="nofollow">http://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilverstein/2013/02/20/despite-difficulties-nuclear-energy-will-regain-strength/</a></p>
<p>Those nuclear &#8220;subsidies&#8221; are cleanup loans paid back by the utility. Not to mention that nuclear is four times more expensive than it has to be due to 70s regulations which add nothing to safety.</p>
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		<title>By: New book, Rooftop Revolution, takes aim at King CONG : Renew Economy</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-131920</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[New book, Rooftop Revolution, takes aim at King CONG : Renew Economy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 00:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-131920</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Revolutionaries” in combatting King CONG (that is, the “monolithic dirty energy lobby” Coal, Oil, Nuclear, and [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Revolutionaries” in combatting King CONG (that is, the “monolithic dirty energy lobby” Coal, Oil, Nuclear, and [&#8230;]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rooftop Revolution: New book takes aim at King CONG : Renew Economy</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-131919</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rooftop Revolution: New book takes aim at King CONG : Renew Economy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 00:10:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-131919</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Revolutionaries” in combatting King CONG (that is, the “monolithic dirty energy lobby” Coal, Oil, Nuclear, and [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Revolutionaries” in combatting King CONG (that is, the “monolithic dirty energy lobby” Coal, Oil, Nuclear, and [&#8230;]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: New Book, Rooftop Revolution, Hopes to Combat King CONG - CleanTechnica</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-131758</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[New Book, Rooftop Revolution, Hopes to Combat King CONG - CleanTechnica]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 10:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-131758</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] in combatting King CONG (that is, the &#8220;monolithic dirty energy lobby&#8221; Coal, Oil, Nuclear, and [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] in combatting King CONG (that is, the &#8220;monolithic dirty energy lobby&#8221; Coal, Oil, Nuclear, and [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129139</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2012 04:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129139</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s the rebuttal to Turner.  Also behind a paywall.

Apparently there&#039;s a bit of a problem with the paper you grabbed.


Delucchi, Mark A. and Mark Z. Jacobson (2011) Response to &quot;A Critique of Jacobson and Delucchi&#039;s Proposals for a World Renewable Energy Supply&quot; by Ted Trainer. *Energy Policy*  44, 482 - 484
Abstract:

Ted Trainer&#039;s “A critique of Jacobson and Delucchi&#039;s proposals for a world renewable energy supply” (hereafter T11), directed at our two *Energy Policy * articles “Providing all global energy with wind, water, and solar power, Part I: Technologies, energy resources, quantities and areas of infrastructure, and materials” (hereafter JD11) and “Providing all global energy with wind, water, and solar power, Part II: Reliability, system and transmission costs, and policies” (hereafter DJ11), makes two main points: 
(1) that JD11 and DJ11 do “not deal effectively with the problems set by the variability of renewable energy sources,” and

(2) that the JD11/DJ11 “analysis of investment costs is inadequate.”

Neither of these criticisms is valid. We show here that T11&#039;s first main point is based on a misrepresentation of what is stated and referenced in DJ11, and that his second main point is based on mistakes and unreasonable assumptions. As a result, T11&#039;s critique does not affect our original analyses or our conclusion that it is technically, economically, and environmentally feasible to provide all global energy with wind, water, and solar power.

We organize our response around T11&#039;s two main criticisms (variability and investment costs) and under each main criticism by T11&#039;s topic headings. 
------


Here you can read part of the problem with the Turner paper.  Turner, it seems, misrepresented what was written in the original Scientific American paper.  First of three pages is readable without paying.
 http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier/response-to-a-critique-of-jacobson-and-delucchi-s-proposals-for-a-vg17M7mD3k]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the rebuttal to Turner.  Also behind a paywall.</p>
<p>Apparently there&#8217;s a bit of a problem with the paper you grabbed.</p>
<p>Delucchi, Mark A. and Mark Z. Jacobson (2011) Response to &#8220;A Critique of Jacobson and Delucchi&#8217;s Proposals for a World Renewable Energy Supply&#8221; by Ted Trainer. *Energy Policy*  44, 482 &#8211; 484<br />
Abstract:</p>
<p>Ted Trainer&#8217;s “A critique of Jacobson and Delucchi&#8217;s proposals for a world renewable energy supply” (hereafter T11), directed at our two *Energy Policy * articles “Providing all global energy with wind, water, and solar power, Part I: Technologies, energy resources, quantities and areas of infrastructure, and materials” (hereafter JD11) and “Providing all global energy with wind, water, and solar power, Part II: Reliability, system and transmission costs, and policies” (hereafter DJ11), makes two main points:<br />
(1) that JD11 and DJ11 do “not deal effectively with the problems set by the variability of renewable energy sources,” and</p>
<p>(2) that the JD11/DJ11 “analysis of investment costs is inadequate.”</p>
<p>Neither of these criticisms is valid. We show here that T11&#8217;s first main point is based on a misrepresentation of what is stated and referenced in DJ11, and that his second main point is based on mistakes and unreasonable assumptions. As a result, T11&#8217;s critique does not affect our original analyses or our conclusion that it is technically, economically, and environmentally feasible to provide all global energy with wind, water, and solar power.</p>
<p>We organize our response around T11&#8217;s two main criticisms (variability and investment costs) and under each main criticism by T11&#8217;s topic headings.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>Here you can read part of the problem with the Turner paper.  Turner, it seems, misrepresented what was written in the original Scientific American paper.  First of three pages is readable without paying.<br />
 <a href="http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier/response-to-a-critique-of-jacobson-and-delucchi-s-proposals-for-a-vg17M7mD3k" rel="nofollow">http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier/response-to-a-critique-of-jacobson-and-delucchi-s-proposals-for-a-vg17M7mD3k</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129129</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2012 01:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Can&#039;t tell what the article says from just the abstract.  How about you furnish the body of the piece that you must have read in order to understand their argument?

--

You are reading too much into the article about offshore wind in Holland. The government is having to pull back on financing wind at the moment. Offshore is still a bit expensive but likely to fall to what onshore costs (higher installed cost but higher capacity).

You just can&#039;t grab something that you think sounds like it supports your position and fling it out.  You need to understand what you read.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t tell what the article says from just the abstract.  How about you furnish the body of the piece that you must have read in order to understand their argument?</p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p>You are reading too much into the article about offshore wind in Holland. The government is having to pull back on financing wind at the moment. Offshore is still a bit expensive but likely to fall to what onshore costs (higher installed cost but higher capacity).</p>
<p>You just can&#8217;t grab something that you think sounds like it supports your position and fling it out.  You need to understand what you read.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Cl1ffClav3n</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129127</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cl1ffClav3n]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2012 01:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129127</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421511007269

That took 30 seconds.  Here&#039;s a nice news article on how wind has screwed the Dutch.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/16/us-dutch-wind-idUSTRE7AF1JM20111116 .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421511007269</p>
<p>That took 30 seconds.  Here&#8217;s a nice news article on how wind has screwed the Dutch.<br />
<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/16/us-dutch-wind-idUSTRE7AF1JM20111116" rel="nofollow">http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/16/us-dutch-wind-idUSTRE7AF1JM20111116</a> .</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129121</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2012 00:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129121</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cliff, bring us one piece of peer reviewed publication from a quality journal that finds errors in the Jacobson and Delucci paper.

Please don&#039;t bother me with the comments on web sites.  I&#039;ve been through many and there is no there there.

And please drop the dishonest wind farm math.

Oh, and drop that &quot;spinning reserve&quot; nonsense.  There&#039;s no need to keep turbines spinning to backup wind and solar.  Wind farms are already adding battery storage in order to insure blocks of power and gas turbines can be spun from off to full speed in 10-15 minutes if needed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cliff, bring us one piece of peer reviewed publication from a quality journal that finds errors in the Jacobson and Delucci paper.</p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t bother me with the comments on web sites.  I&#8217;ve been through many and there is no there there.</p>
<p>And please drop the dishonest wind farm math.</p>
<p>Oh, and drop that &#8220;spinning reserve&#8221; nonsense.  There&#8217;s no need to keep turbines spinning to backup wind and solar.  Wind farms are already adding battery storage in order to insure blocks of power and gas turbines can be spun from off to full speed in 10-15 minutes if needed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Cl1ffClav3n</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129119</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cl1ffClav3n]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 23:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129119</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Come on, Bob.  That Jacobson article is a puff piece that should be in the opinion section, not Scientific American.  It has been picked to pieces in online and peer criticism that the author&#039;s refuse to acknowledge let alone rebut.  It is a fairy tale full of &quot;might,&quot; &quot;should,&quot; &quot;could,&quot; and &quot;may,&quot; with hand-waving dismissals of virtually anything that involves  math.  Per NREL land use factors, 12.5 TW of power with 51% from wind and 40% from solar equates to 850,000 mi2 of wind turbine farms and 158,000 mi2 of full density solar panel coverage -- with zero power redundancy.  Of course, the Achilles heel 
with wind and solar is the variability, and that is why both the cost and the EROI are crushed in the real world by having to maintain spinning reserve fossil fuel on the grid or on-site diesel backup.  Wind and solar customers pay for twice the power they need.  It is the $6.28 in net revenue that the federal government collects on each barrel of oil consumed in the U.S. that is ironically being used to underwrite such follies.  Love &#039;em or hate &#039;em, fossil fuels built and sustain this country, and it is only because of their high EROI we can waste energy on money pits like today&#039;s wind and solar.  The subsidy data tell the story.  Solar is getting closer to break-even and I believe will get there, but it will never supplant a significant portion of overall energy supply.  Wind turbines are too land-hungry and painful to the senses.  What a way to ruin 850,000 square miles of land with giant monuments to man&#039;s carelessness for nature.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Come on, Bob.  That Jacobson article is a puff piece that should be in the opinion section, not Scientific American.  It has been picked to pieces in online and peer criticism that the author&#8217;s refuse to acknowledge let alone rebut.  It is a fairy tale full of &#8220;might,&#8221; &#8220;should,&#8221; &#8220;could,&#8221; and &#8220;may,&#8221; with hand-waving dismissals of virtually anything that involves  math.  Per NREL land use factors, 12.5 TW of power with 51% from wind and 40% from solar equates to 850,000 mi2 of wind turbine farms and 158,000 mi2 of full density solar panel coverage &#8212; with zero power redundancy.  Of course, the Achilles heel<br />
with wind and solar is the variability, and that is why both the cost and the EROI are crushed in the real world by having to maintain spinning reserve fossil fuel on the grid or on-site diesel backup.  Wind and solar customers pay for twice the power they need.  It is the $6.28 in net revenue that the federal government collects on each barrel of oil consumed in the U.S. that is ironically being used to underwrite such follies.  Love &#8216;em or hate &#8216;em, fossil fuels built and sustain this country, and it is only because of their high EROI we can waste energy on money pits like today&#8217;s wind and solar.  The subsidy data tell the story.  Solar is getting closer to break-even and I believe will get there, but it will never supplant a significant portion of overall energy supply.  Wind turbines are too land-hungry and painful to the senses.  What a way to ruin 850,000 square miles of land with giant monuments to man&#8217;s carelessness for nature.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129117</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 23:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What does it mean that &quot;best case for terrestrial wind is 50.6%&quot; other than we&#039;ll need to go to offshore wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, tidal, wave and biomass/gas for the other 49.4%?

We&#039;ve got far more of those resources that we need.

I&#039;ve never seen anyone claim that we should get 100% of our power from a single source.  (However that straw man argument is made by &quot;fossil fuel friends&quot;)

And what does the &quot; land use / power density average is 34.5 ha/MW / 2.9 W/m2&quot; have to do with the price of little green apples?

We&#039;ve got far more land than we need in windy places to put turbines.  And, remember, less than 2% of the land in wind farms gets used for turbine tower footings, etc.  The other 98+% is still usable for original purpose.



]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What does it mean that &#8220;best case for terrestrial wind is 50.6%&#8221; other than we&#8217;ll need to go to offshore wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, tidal, wave and biomass/gas for the other 49.4%?</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve got far more of those resources that we need.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never seen anyone claim that we should get 100% of our power from a single source.  (However that straw man argument is made by &#8220;fossil fuel friends&#8221;)</p>
<p>And what does the &#8221; land use / power density average is 34.5 ha/MW / 2.9 W/m2&#8243; have to do with the price of little green apples?</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve got far more land than we need in windy places to put turbines.  And, remember, less than 2% of the land in wind farms gets used for turbine tower footings, etc.  The other 98+% is still usable for original purpose.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Cl1ffClav3n</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cl1ffClav3n]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 22:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great website.  I see 50.6% as the best case for terrestrial wind, with 38% being about a weighted average.  A good data point to pass back is that per NREL study of real-world US wind turbine installations since 2009, the land use / power density average is 34.5 ha/MW / 2.9 W/m2. (

  Denholm, Paul, Maureen Hand, Maddalena Jackson, and Sean Ong. Land-Use Requirements of Modern Wind Power Plants in the U.S. National Renewable Energy Laboratory, August 2009. www.nrel.gov/docs/fy09osti/45834.pdf ).
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great website.  I see 50.6% as the best case for terrestrial wind, with 38% being about a weighted average.  A good data point to pass back is that per NREL study of real-world US wind turbine installations since 2009, the land use / power density average is 34.5 ha/MW / 2.9 W/m2. (</p>
<p>  Denholm, Paul, Maureen Hand, Maddalena Jackson, and Sean Ong. Land-Use Requirements of Modern Wind Power Plants in the U.S. National Renewable Energy Laboratory, August 2009. <a href="http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy09osti/45834.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy09osti/45834.pdf</a> ).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129057</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 03:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129057</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here Cliff, read this.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-path-to-sustainable-energy-by-2030 

Read it all, all five pages, and read with comprehension.

I get the feeling that you&#039;re actually trying to figure stuff out.  Perhaps if you had a better grasp of what is possible you could do a better job.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here Cliff, read this.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-path-to-sustainable-energy-by-2030 " rel="nofollow">http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-path-to-sustainable-energy-by-2030 </a></p>
<p>Read it all, all five pages, and read with comprehension.</p>
<p>I get the feeling that you&#8217;re actually trying to figure stuff out.  Perhaps if you had a better grasp of what is possible you could do a better job.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cl1ffClav3n</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129056</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cl1ffClav3n]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 03:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129056</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Spoken like all the simple folks who don&#039;t seem to realize that electric cars are powered by electric power plants that burn fossil fuel.  I have asked three times and no one on Clean Technica will answer, how is solar (or wind) going to provide the 27 quadrillion BTUs of energy that the US transportation sector consumes each year?  &quot;He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.” –John McCarthy, Stanford U.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spoken like all the simple folks who don&#8217;t seem to realize that electric cars are powered by electric power plants that burn fossil fuel.  I have asked three times and no one on Clean Technica will answer, how is solar (or wind) going to provide the 27 quadrillion BTUs of energy that the US transportation sector consumes each year?  &#8220;He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.” –John McCarthy, Stanford U.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129055</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 03:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129055</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://en.openei.org/apps/TCDB/

Click on &quot;Capacity Factor&quot;.

If you want more detail it&#039;s on the EIA site.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://en.openei.org/apps/TCDB/" rel="nofollow">http://en.openei.org/apps/TCDB/</a></p>
<p>Click on &#8220;Capacity Factor&#8221;.</p>
<p>If you want more detail it&#8217;s on the EIA site.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129054</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 03:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129054</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have no idea what point you are trying to make.  Are you saying that an emerging technology should receive no more assistance than is given to an established, mature and highly profitable technology?

Do you not comprehend that fossil fuels and nuclear have received massive public money sup accelerate nature&#039;s role in sequestering CO2, and that is by increasing green biomass growthort over the time of their development and are still being gifted with tax payer dollars when they can easily stand on their own two feet?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no idea what point you are trying to make.  Are you saying that an emerging technology should receive no more assistance than is given to an established, mature and highly profitable technology?</p>
<p>Do you not comprehend that fossil fuels and nuclear have received massive public money sup accelerate nature&#8217;s role in sequestering CO2, and that is by increasing green biomass growthort over the time of their development and are still being gifted with tax payer dollars when they can easily stand on their own two feet?</p>
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		<title>By: Cl1ffClav3n</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129053</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cl1ffClav3n]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 03:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129053</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay, National Academy of Sciences came up with $120B, and that included hidden costs of global warming as well.  Where did you get $500B? Also see other post for all the hidden costs that must be considered for biofuel farming or solar module and wind turbine manufacture and land use change.  All forms of energy come with their benefits and costs.  Not one is &quot;clean and green.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, National Academy of Sciences came up with $120B, and that included hidden costs of global warming as well.  Where did you get $500B? Also see other post for all the hidden costs that must be considered for biofuel farming or solar module and wind turbine manufacture and land use change.  All forms of energy come with their benefits and costs.  Not one is &#8220;clean and green.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Cl1ffClav3n</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129052</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cl1ffClav3n]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 03:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129052</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Could I get a good neutral and credible source for your 50% capacity factor number for wind.  I&#039;m still seeing 25% in real-world studies.  I would like to update my data.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could I get a good neutral and credible source for your 50% capacity factor number for wind.  I&#8217;m still seeing 25% in real-world studies.  I would like to update my data.</p>
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		<title>By: Cl1ffClav3n</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129051</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cl1ffClav3n]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 03:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129051</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Per the 2011 Deparment of Energy EIA report prepared specifically for Congress: US wind energy subsidized at $31.33 per barrel of oil equivalent energy output.  Solar at $59.60 per BOE.  Oil at 27 cents per BOE. (Take subsidy amounts from Direct Federal Financial Interventions and Subsidies in Energy in Fiscal Year 2010. Energy Information Agency, July 2011. http://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests/subsidy and divide by energy totals from 

  Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. “Estimated U.S Energy Use in 2010: ~98.0 Quads.” Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, 2011. https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/energy/energy_archive/energy_flow_2010/LLNLUSEnergy2010.png).

 ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Per the 2011 Deparment of Energy EIA report prepared specifically for Congress: US wind energy subsidized at $31.33 per barrel of oil equivalent energy output.  Solar at $59.60 per BOE.  Oil at 27 cents per BOE. (Take subsidy amounts from Direct Federal Financial Interventions and Subsidies in Energy in Fiscal Year 2010. Energy Information Agency, July 2011. <a href="http://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests/subsidy" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests/subsidy</a> and divide by energy totals from </p>
<p>  Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. “Estimated U.S Energy Use in 2010: ~98.0 Quads.” Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, 2011. <a href="https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/energy/energy_archive/energy_flow_2010/LLNLUSEnergy2010.png" rel="nofollow">https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/energy/energy_archive/energy_flow_2010/LLNLUSEnergy2010.png</a>).</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129050</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 02:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129050</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cliff - That&#039;s just plain wrong.  Very wrong.

Right now we could move all our personal transportation to either EVs or PHEVs.  That would cut our use of oil by at least 75%.

We could move our public ground transportation largely to electricity by using electric buses, subways, light rail and high speed rail.  Much of our air travel could move to electrified HSR - just as fast and a lot more comfortable.

We could shut down coal quickly by  accelerating wind and solar installations, using natural gas to fill in the gaps.  As we develop better storage we can gradually reduce NG usage and rely on stored renewable energy.

There is essentially no place on Earth that does not have access to some sort of renewable energy.  There are no shortages of critical materials that would stop us from providing clean energy to everyone, everywhere.



It might (notice that I said might?) make sense to use plant material for airplane/ship fuel.  Better that we recycle some of the carbon already above ground rather than bring more to the surface to fuel planes (and cargo ships).  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cliff &#8211; That&#8217;s just plain wrong.  Very wrong.</p>
<p>Right now we could move all our personal transportation to either EVs or PHEVs.  That would cut our use of oil by at least 75%.</p>
<p>We could move our public ground transportation largely to electricity by using electric buses, subways, light rail and high speed rail.  Much of our air travel could move to electrified HSR &#8211; just as fast and a lot more comfortable.</p>
<p>We could shut down coal quickly by  accelerating wind and solar installations, using natural gas to fill in the gaps.  As we develop better storage we can gradually reduce NG usage and rely on stored renewable energy.</p>
<p>There is essentially no place on Earth that does not have access to some sort of renewable energy.  There are no shortages of critical materials that would stop us from providing clean energy to everyone, everywhere.</p>
<p>It might (notice that I said might?) make sense to use plant material for airplane/ship fuel.  Better that we recycle some of the carbon already above ground rather than bring more to the surface to fuel planes (and cargo ships).  </p>
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		<title>By: Cl1ffClav3n</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/#comment-129049</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cl1ffClav3n]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 02:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=40929#comment-129049</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was following the Australian carbon tax controversy awhile back, but lost contact.  Is Australia paying the A$23/ton carbon taxes for coal exported to and consumed by China or not?  If you are then you are just accelerating your wealth transfer to Asia.  Either way, China is not paying it and won&#039;t pay it because it would slow their economic development (at least they&#039;re upfront about refusing rather than signing on to the protocols and then ignoring them).  India will not abide by carbon taxes either for the same reason.  Neither will sub-saharn African nations.  The western nations can sign up for credits or caps or taxes, but it is just a feel good move for liberal governments that further slows economies and thereby reduces tax revenues.  It unfortunately has a minimal impact on slowing GHG emissions growth.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was following the Australian carbon tax controversy awhile back, but lost contact.  Is Australia paying the A$23/ton carbon taxes for coal exported to and consumed by China or not?  If you are then you are just accelerating your wealth transfer to Asia.  Either way, China is not paying it and won&#8217;t pay it because it would slow their economic development (at least they&#8217;re upfront about refusing rather than signing on to the protocols and then ignoring them).  India will not abide by carbon taxes either for the same reason.  Neither will sub-saharn African nations.  The western nations can sign up for credits or caps or taxes, but it is just a feel good move for liberal governments that further slows economies and thereby reduces tax revenues.  It unfortunately has a minimal impact on slowing GHG emissions growth.  </p>
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