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	<title>Comments on: Offshore Use of Vertical-Axis Wind Turbines Gets Closer Look by Sandia Labs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
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		<title>By: Dave2020</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/#comment-128871</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave2020]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2012 12:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=41006#comment-128871</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Sandia engineers are creating several concept designs.&quot;



All of which come from the last century. Nothing new here.



There are a number of design false assumptions:-



&quot;the early favorite for further testing is the Darrieus design.&quot;



Which variant is best?



&quot;The project will evaluate new rotor designs that smooth out the amplitude of these torque oscillations without significantly increasing rotor cost.&quot;



That&#039;s already been done, hasn&#039;t it? Is cost a factor with this design? Looks like it could be replaced at a fraction of the cost of a HAWT turbine repair.



http://www.rechargenews.com/business_area/innovation/article296513.ece

&quot;Offshore wind is a different world.” Can&#039;t argue with that.



&quot;better scalability to very large sizes.&quot;



Wrong premise. Silly really. A (nominal) 2MW will do nicely - more robust.



&quot;Barone said new VAWT designs will need robust aerodynamic brakes.&quot;



No - they won&#039;t need any brakes at all. The (no gearbox) drivetrain should do that job.



&quot;aimed at addressing the national energy challenge of increasing the use of low-carbon power generation.&quot;



Aimed in the wrong direction. Dispatchability addresses that challenge best.


Why capture the wind and not the wave energy? There&#039;s a lot of it out there!

Draft is a factor in achieving the economies of towing out from port, so sub-sea innovation is the answer.


&quot;The five-year, $4.1-million project began in January of this year.&quot;



Too little, too late. But still far better than the UK&#039;s pathetic R&amp;D scene. Anyway, why aren&#039;t the incumbents pushing these boundaries? Too complacent?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sandia engineers are creating several concept designs.&#8221;</p>
<p>All of which come from the last century. Nothing new here.</p>
<p>There are a number of design false assumptions:-</p>
<p>&#8220;the early favorite for further testing is the Darrieus design.&#8221;</p>
<p>Which variant is best?</p>
<p>&#8220;The project will evaluate new rotor designs that smooth out the amplitude of these torque oscillations without significantly increasing rotor cost.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s already been done, hasn&#8217;t it? Is cost a factor with this design? Looks like it could be replaced at a fraction of the cost of a HAWT turbine repair.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.rechargenews.com/business_area/innovation/article296513.ece" rel="nofollow">http://www.rechargenews.com/business_area/innovation/article296513.ece</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Offshore wind is a different world.” Can&#8217;t argue with that.</p>
<p>&#8220;better scalability to very large sizes.&#8221;</p>
<p>Wrong premise. Silly really. A (nominal) 2MW will do nicely &#8211; more robust.</p>
<p>&#8220;Barone said new VAWT designs will need robust aerodynamic brakes.&#8221;</p>
<p>No &#8211; they won&#8217;t need any brakes at all. The (no gearbox) drivetrain should do that job.</p>
<p>&#8220;aimed at addressing the national energy challenge of increasing the use of low-carbon power generation.&#8221;</p>
<p>Aimed in the wrong direction. Dispatchability addresses that challenge best.</p>
<p>Why capture the wind and not the wave energy? There&#8217;s a lot of it out there!</p>
<p>Draft is a factor in achieving the economies of towing out from port, so sub-sea innovation is the answer.</p>
<p>&#8220;The five-year, $4.1-million project began in January of this year.&#8221;</p>
<p>Too little, too late. But still far better than the UK&#8217;s pathetic R&amp;D scene. Anyway, why aren&#8217;t the incumbents pushing these boundaries? Too complacent?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/#comment-128855</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2012 05:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=41006#comment-128855</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So you don&#039;t know of any data to back up your claim?


(BTW, I&#039;ve spent a few years as a blue water sailor.  I have a pretty good idea how large the ocean is and how much gets used for shipping, etc.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you don&#8217;t know of any data to back up your claim?</p>
<p>(BTW, I&#8217;ve spent a few years as a blue water sailor.  I have a pretty good idea how large the ocean is and how much gets used for shipping, etc.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: lakosh</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/#comment-128852</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lakosh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2012 04:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=41006#comment-128852</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://dabiri.caltech.edu/research/wind-energy.html

Ocean realestate isn&#039;t as available as you think given shipping channels, fishing grounds and marine mammal habitat]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dabiri.caltech.edu/research/wind-energy.html" rel="nofollow">http://dabiri.caltech.edu/research/wind-energy.html</a></p>
<p>Ocean realestate isn&#8217;t as available as you think given shipping channels, fishing grounds and marine mammal habitat</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/#comment-128851</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2012 04:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=41006#comment-128851</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do you know of some data that shows that VAWTs ganged produce more power than VAWTs spaced?

The only thing that I&#039;ve seen says that VAWTs are less degraded than HAWTs when ganged, which is what one would expect.  HAWTs don&#039;t
like turbulence and create some in their wakes.

That argues that VAWTs might be a better choice when real estate is at a premium, but it doesn&#039;t automatically mean that clustering is better when total area is not an issue.

I can imagine that turbulence, as long as there isn&#039;t significant energy cancellation, could help VAWTs as it might spread force and somewhat smooth out the loading cycles.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you know of some data that shows that VAWTs ganged produce more power than VAWTs spaced?</p>
<p>The only thing that I&#8217;ve seen says that VAWTs are less degraded than HAWTs when ganged, which is what one would expect.  HAWTs don&#8217;t<br />
like turbulence and create some in their wakes.</p>
<p>That argues that VAWTs might be a better choice when real estate is at a premium, but it doesn&#8217;t automatically mean that clustering is better when total area is not an issue.</p>
<p>I can imagine that turbulence, as long as there isn&#8217;t significant energy cancellation, could help VAWTs as it might spread force and somewhat smooth out the loading cycles.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: lakosh</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/#comment-128850</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lakosh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2012 04:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=41006#comment-128850</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, HAWTs are being floated into position but the idea of ganging spars into long strings is to minimize moorings and time to install the units. If you follow the FLOWE studies, they show a symbiotic effect of close VAWT spacing and these turbines have a shorter/narrower interference and turbulence wake so turbines in the field each have a higher capacity factor. The access to the generator and bearings at sea level is also a big maintenance cost saver.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, HAWTs are being floated into position but the idea of ganging spars into long strings is to minimize moorings and time to install the units. If you follow the FLOWE studies, they show a symbiotic effect of close VAWT spacing and these turbines have a shorter/narrower interference and turbulence wake so turbines in the field each have a higher capacity factor. The access to the generator and bearings at sea level is also a big maintenance cost saver.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/#comment-128849</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2012 03:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=41006#comment-128849</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Floating HAWTs are being built in harbor and towed to position.

Placing multiple turbines in close proximity could foul the wind.  Ocean is not in short supply.

I suppose we&#039;ll have some data before too long and can get past the speculating....

 ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Floating HAWTs are being built in harbor and towed to position.</p>
<p>Placing multiple turbines in close proximity could foul the wind.  Ocean is not in short supply.</p>
<p>I suppose we&#8217;ll have some data before too long and can get past the speculating&#8230;.</p>
<p> </p>
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		<title>By: lakosh</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/#comment-128848</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lakosh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2012 03:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=41006#comment-128848</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Torque ripple is smoothed with curved Gorlov
rotor blades, hence the debate over the increased cost of shaped blades over straight blades. VAWTs can also produce more power per unit area if spaced to induce a schooling effect, (see Caltech FLOWE studies). The low center of gravity and short turbulence wake are very important in erecting the turbines as ganged strings of VAWTs can be erected in port and towed into position at deep water and/or high wind sites that would frustrate erection of HAWTs due to nearly continuous high sea states. This close spacing of ganged turbine spars would also allow mounting of current and wave power generators on the steel cables connecting
the spar buoys. The combination of multiple power sources would improve power produced per unit area and the capacity factor of the transmission lines if not the power per unit of materials and labor employed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Torque ripple is smoothed with curved Gorlov<br />
rotor blades, hence the debate over the increased cost of shaped blades over straight blades. VAWTs can also produce more power per unit area if spaced to induce a schooling effect, (see Caltech FLOWE studies). The low center of gravity and short turbulence wake are very important in erecting the turbines as ganged strings of VAWTs can be erected in port and towed into position at deep water and/or high wind sites that would frustrate erection of HAWTs due to nearly continuous high sea states. This close spacing of ganged turbine spars would also allow mounting of current and wave power generators on the steel cables connecting<br />
the spar buoys. The combination of multiple power sources would improve power produced per unit area and the capacity factor of the transmission lines if not the power per unit of materials and labor employed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Glenn Meyers</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/#comment-128801</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Glenn Meyers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2012 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=41006#comment-128801</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the input.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the input.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Glenn Meyers</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/#comment-128799</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Glenn Meyers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2012 16:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=41006#comment-128799</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hope that isn&#039;t an issue this time around!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope that isn&#8217;t an issue this time around!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Random passer by</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/#comment-128784</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Random passer by]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2012 14:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=41006#comment-128784</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think  it was not just cost that caused the Darrieus design to phase out. If I remember correctly, Darrieus rotors need to be kick-started by a motor after stand still,  and there were big fatigue problems caused by the different wind speeds experienced by the lower and higher parts of the blade.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think  it was not just cost that caused the Darrieus design to phase out. If I remember correctly, Darrieus rotors need to be kick-started by a motor after stand still,  and there were big fatigue problems caused by the different wind speeds experienced by the lower and higher parts of the blade.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Johaar</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/02/offshore-use-of-vertical-axis-wind-turbines-gets-closer-look-by-sandia-labs/#comment-128766</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Johaar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2012 08:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=41006#comment-128766</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi
It seems that smoothing out the torque ripple requires a multiblade design that ensures that the power and torque phases are more frequent.ie more blades mean a continuance of the power and torque phases and therefore should eliminate the drivetrain fatigue phenomena and its implications.More blades please.Have a look at the ventilation blower of the average 90&#039;s sedan.That kind of construction?
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi<br />
It seems that smoothing out the torque ripple requires a multiblade design that ensures that the power and torque phases are more frequent.ie more blades mean a continuance of the power and torque phases and therefore should eliminate the drivetrain fatigue phenomena and its implications.More blades please.Have a look at the ventilation blower of the average 90&#8217;s sedan.That kind of construction?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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