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	<title>Comments on: Do We Really Need Electricity Retailers?</title>
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	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
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		<title>By: Zachary Shahan</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-126262</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zachary Shahan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2012 22:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-126262</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nice. That is awesome!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice. That is awesome!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave2020</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-126144</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave2020]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2012 08:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-126144</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Further to the above:-



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18759520



&quot;most households pay £1 per day for an unlimited supply&quot;



On a metered supply, water costs me less than 20p a day.



A spokesman for Welsh Water said the supplier was &quot;investing heavily in protecting resources, replacing old pipes and mains, and greatly reducing leakage&quot;.



Not to mention fitting meters free on request.



What&#039;s not to like about the not-for-profit business model?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further to the above:-</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18759520" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18759520</a></p>
<p>&#8220;most households pay £1 per day for an unlimited supply&#8221;</p>
<p>On a metered supply, water costs me less than 20p a day.</p>
<p>A spokesman for Welsh Water said the supplier was &#8220;investing heavily in protecting resources, replacing old pipes and mains, and greatly reducing leakage&#8221;.</p>
<p>Not to mention fitting meters free on request.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s not to like about the not-for-profit business model?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave2020</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-125951</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave2020]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jul 2012 09:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-125951</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This gives you the perfect example of how all utilities, which are natural-monopoly public services, should be structured - i.e. vertical integration, no mock market, no middlemen and no fat cats:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/13/welsh-water-dwr-cymru-investment



For the provision of mains water and sewerage I pay £15.50 a month - a bargain.



For telecoms the bill is £25. It should be less, but the land line is still not LLU.



For electricity £26. They&#039;ll be paying me when my solar is installed.



Gas is £39. It was £33 last year, but the &#039;retailer&#039; increased my direct debit without notifying me of the change. I worked in the gas industry for twenty years, the first ten under public ownership. By any criteria, privatization was a retrograde move, a massive cultural change in the wrong direction.



Both gas and electricity are &#039;supplied&#039; by SSE. Don&#039;t make me laugh. This is a prime example of &#039;free&#039; market failure, where profit always takes precedence over customer service. Hugh Outhred is right, because these so-called markets, in energy and finance, are not free in any sense of the word. The complexity of their structure is designed by the players, for the players.



A functional, vertically integrated electricity industry would be able to plan. long-term, for the most efficient and logical provision of grid infrastructure and energy storage. Then the introduction of widely distributed renewables to displace (centralized) fossil fuels could be organized entirely on the basis of an evaluation of the most practical and appropriate science-led technology. Markets will never embrace R&amp;D.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This gives you the perfect example of how all utilities, which are natural-monopoly public services, should be structured &#8211; i.e. vertical integration, no mock market, no middlemen and no fat cats:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/13/welsh-water-dwr-cymru-investment" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/13/welsh-water-dwr-cymru-investment</a></p>
<p>For the provision of mains water and sewerage I pay £15.50 a month &#8211; a bargain.</p>
<p>For telecoms the bill is £25. It should be less, but the land line is still not LLU.</p>
<p>For electricity £26. They&#8217;ll be paying me when my solar is installed.</p>
<p>Gas is £39. It was £33 last year, but the &#8216;retailer&#8217; increased my direct debit without notifying me of the change. I worked in the gas industry for twenty years, the first ten under public ownership. By any criteria, privatization was a retrograde move, a massive cultural change in the wrong direction.</p>
<p>Both gas and electricity are &#8216;supplied&#8217; by SSE. Don&#8217;t make me laugh. This is a prime example of &#8216;free&#8217; market failure, where profit always takes precedence over customer service. Hugh Outhred is right, because these so-called markets, in energy and finance, are not free in any sense of the word. The complexity of their structure is designed by the players, for the players.</p>
<p>A functional, vertically integrated electricity industry would be able to plan. long-term, for the most efficient and logical provision of grid infrastructure and energy storage. Then the introduction of widely distributed renewables to displace (centralized) fossil fuels could be organized entirely on the basis of an evaluation of the most practical and appropriate science-led technology. Markets will never embrace R&amp;D.</p>
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		<title>By: T. Lester</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-125936</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[T. Lester]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jul 2012 02:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-125936</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just maybe energy retailers will have the power to purchase advanced, and likely pricey storage systems, where other people will not.

Maybe better to live in apartments/condos and pool resources to go off grid.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just maybe energy retailers will have the power to purchase advanced, and likely pricey storage systems, where other people will not.</p>
<p>Maybe better to live in apartments/condos and pool resources to go off grid.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: T. Lester</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-125935</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[T. Lester]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jul 2012 02:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-125935</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[With enough heads up by the media, the electricity retailers will be prepared to make hay even when the sun doesn&#039;t shine.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With enough heads up by the media, the electricity retailers will be prepared to make hay even when the sun doesn&#8217;t shine.</p>
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		<title>By: Thor Russell</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-125919</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thor Russell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jul 2012 00:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-125919</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think you will see some very &quot;interesting times&quot; in this regard when energy storage becomes cheaper, particularly in places where there aren&#039;t large national/continent wide grids to share electricity.
If solar panels/storage becomes common, there may be a time when the  grid will only be required in winter or when there has been a week of little sun. However the companies will want to be paid to maintain the grid so they could try to charge large prices for those times when it is needed. Also in the middle of summer there will be excess electricity and it will be pretty much free. You may see retailers trying to discourage solar power by selling electricity very cheaply when the sun is shining but expensive when it isn&#039;t making the business case for installing further panels diminish. The &quot;free market&quot; solution to the changing situation could be quite unstable. Add to that political lobbying and you may find some very strange new rules coming into play.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you will see some very &#8220;interesting times&#8221; in this regard when energy storage becomes cheaper, particularly in places where there aren&#8217;t large national/continent wide grids to share electricity.<br />
If solar panels/storage becomes common, there may be a time when the  grid will only be required in winter or when there has been a week of little sun. However the companies will want to be paid to maintain the grid so they could try to charge large prices for those times when it is needed. Also in the middle of summer there will be excess electricity and it will be pretty much free. You may see retailers trying to discourage solar power by selling electricity very cheaply when the sun is shining but expensive when it isn&#8217;t making the business case for installing further panels diminish. The &#8220;free market&#8221; solution to the changing situation could be quite unstable. Add to that political lobbying and you may find some very strange new rules coming into play.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Energy4all</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-125914</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Energy4all]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2012 21:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-125914</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is very little doubt that an energy retailer will only add to the cost of the service overall. This is probably an additional expense that will fall away from the managerial heirarchy as most electric suppliers bill customers directly anyway and will simply solicit PPAs and Energy Certificates from green producers via RFIs as they have been doing. Customer satisfaction and purchasing power is what keeps utilities in business. If they get dissatisfied with prices or service they look into powering their own homes or facilities in part or completely.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is very little doubt that an energy retailer will only add to the cost of the service overall. This is probably an additional expense that will fall away from the managerial heirarchy as most electric suppliers bill customers directly anyway and will simply solicit PPAs and Energy Certificates from green producers via RFIs as they have been doing. Customer satisfaction and purchasing power is what keeps utilities in business. If they get dissatisfied with prices or service they look into powering their own homes or facilities in part or completely.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-125910</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2012 19:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-125910</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When storage prices drop, I think you will see a big flight off the grid.

Look at you Energy Bill (I&#039;ll use mine as a example)
My gas and electric are delivered by Duke.
Gas: We cook and heat with gas so I include summer and winter
Fixed Delivery charge $25.33
Delivery Riders $8.65
Usage-Based charge (delivery) $0.59 (18 CCF)   $1.64 (50 CCF)
Gas Recovery (gas cost)             $7.54 (18 CCF) $18.80 (50 CCF)
Notice how even if I don&#039;t use the gas, I still pay ~$34/month

Electric (I use Dominion as my providor)
Duke Delivery Fixed ~$14
Distribution $0.002212/kWh 
Distribution Riders ~12 for 900kWh ~22 for 1700kWh
Cost of power $0.0564/kWh
 
So distribution is about over 40% of the cost for electric and even more for gas. And that doesn&#039;t count the cost of running the lines to my home, that is hidden in the home cost.

Yes I know 900-1700kWh/month the house is a pig ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When storage prices drop, I think you will see a big flight off the grid.</p>
<p>Look at you Energy Bill (I&#8217;ll use mine as a example)<br />
My gas and electric are delivered by Duke.<br />
Gas: We cook and heat with gas so I include summer and winter<br />
Fixed Delivery charge $25.33<br />
Delivery Riders $8.65<br />
Usage-Based charge (delivery) $0.59 (18 CCF)   $1.64 (50 CCF)<br />
Gas Recovery (gas cost)             $7.54 (18 CCF) $18.80 (50 CCF)<br />
Notice how even if I don&#8217;t use the gas, I still pay ~$34/month</p>
<p>Electric (I use Dominion as my providor)<br />
Duke Delivery Fixed ~$14<br />
Distribution $0.002212/kWh <br />
Distribution Riders ~12 for 900kWh ~22 for 1700kWh<br />
Cost of power $0.0564/kWh<br />
 <br />
So distribution is about over 40% of the cost for electric and even more for gas. And that doesn&#8217;t count the cost of running the lines to my home, that is hidden in the home cost.</p>
<p>Yes I know 900-1700kWh/month the house is a pig </p>
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		<title>By: Hephaestus42</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-125900</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hephaestus42]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2012 18:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-125900</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For all purposes they are already dumb TCP/IP pipes. The current issue (in the US) is that the service providers are doing everything to prevent Voice over IP, and outside video on demand. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For all purposes they are already dumb TCP/IP pipes. The current issue (in the US) is that the service providers are doing everything to prevent Voice over IP, and outside video on demand. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-125899</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ross]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2012 18:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-125899</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d say the one certainty is that telcos as they exist today will not be as they exist in future.  

There are strong parallels with telecoms but also differences.

Video traffic over the Internet (e.g. youtube, netflix, peer to peer) is what is driving investment and evolution in telecoms networks. Bandwidth demand continues to grow by about 50% per year.  Telcos are trying to deliver more bits where energy providers despite what they might like are not trying to deliver ever more power. The energy per bit is declining but not rapidly enough.

Over the top Internet services is the main threat and engine of innovation. 

There&#039;ll be a continued separation between services and the physical infrastructure used to provide them. This is driven by competition and regulation. It&#039;s easier to separate in telecoms.

The core parts of telcos that run the physical infrastructure are likely to evolve in a more predictable fashion, continually putting in higher bandwidth equipment and rolling out more fiber. They will become more wholesale orientated. Their retail arms if they retain them will increasingly create their products based on the wholesale offerings.

Driven by the need for cost savings Mobile operators will share their access networks and separate deeper into the core to the retail brands. Mobile and fixed operators will also share their core networks better.

I wouldn&#039;t bet on telephone numbers dying just yet but the technology will transform.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d say the one certainty is that telcos as they exist today will not be as they exist in future.  </p>
<p>There are strong parallels with telecoms but also differences.</p>
<p>Video traffic over the Internet (e.g. youtube, netflix, peer to peer) is what is driving investment and evolution in telecoms networks. Bandwidth demand continues to grow by about 50% per year.  Telcos are trying to deliver more bits where energy providers despite what they might like are not trying to deliver ever more power. The energy per bit is declining but not rapidly enough.</p>
<p>Over the top Internet services is the main threat and engine of innovation. </p>
<p>There&#8217;ll be a continued separation between services and the physical infrastructure used to provide them. This is driven by competition and regulation. It&#8217;s easier to separate in telecoms.</p>
<p>The core parts of telcos that run the physical infrastructure are likely to evolve in a more predictable fashion, continually putting in higher bandwidth equipment and rolling out more fiber. They will become more wholesale orientated. Their retail arms if they retain them will increasingly create their products based on the wholesale offerings.</p>
<p>Driven by the need for cost savings Mobile operators will share their access networks and separate deeper into the core to the retail brands. Mobile and fixed operators will also share their core networks better.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t bet on telephone numbers dying just yet but the technology will transform.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Shecky Vegas</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-125898</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shecky Vegas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2012 18:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-125898</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You can also go completely off-grid and tell the utilities to shove it. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can also go completely off-grid and tell the utilities to shove it. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Zachary Shahan</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-125876</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zachary Shahan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2012 14:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-125876</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[yep, good point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yep, good point.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Marc Duchesne</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/do-we-really-need-electricity-retailers/#comment-125825</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marc Duchesne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2012 10:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=39845#comment-125825</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very accurate status of the actual landscape of Energy Providers. Same question obviously must apply to the Telecoms Networks Providers : do we still need them ? At least, do we need Telcos as they exist today ?...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very accurate status of the actual landscape of Energy Providers. Same question obviously must apply to the Telecoms Networks Providers : do we still need them ? At least, do we need Telcos as they exist today ?&#8230;</p>
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