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	<title>Comments on: Solar Power Can Double Pumped Hydro Output (Nice)</title>
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	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
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		<title>By: Ronald Brak</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/#comment-122535</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronald Brak]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 06:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=38602#comment-122535</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Getting more out of pumped or other energy storage by using the daytime dip is great.  Anything that lowers the cost of storage is useful.  But it is possible to use a considerable amount of use intermittent capacity without storage.  In the March quarter 34.5% of South Australia&#039;s electricity came from wind and solar (31% wind, 3.5% solar) without using any storage.  A small portion of the wind energy was exported to Victoria, which is a giant electricity sink, but most of it was used in state. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Getting more out of pumped or other energy storage by using the daytime dip is great.  Anything that lowers the cost of storage is useful.  But it is possible to use a considerable amount of use intermittent capacity without storage.  In the March quarter 34.5% of South Australia&#8217;s electricity came from wind and solar (31% wind, 3.5% solar) without using any storage.  A small portion of the wind energy was exported to Victoria, which is a giant electricity sink, but most of it was used in state. </p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/#comment-122530</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 03:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=38602#comment-122530</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you look at what is happening utilities are installing large battery packs on their grid.  And we&#039;re building very little new pump-up.

How will it play out over time?  That&#039;s impossible to predict.  But if batteries get to the pump-up price point then they are likely to dominant the grid.  

Full disclosure - I&#039;ve been off the grid for over 20 years.  I know that batteries work very well for storing electricity, I&#039;m running on mine right now because the Sun has moved far to the west.  

Batteries are really low involvement technology.  They passively accept power when there is extra and give it back when the grid desires.  There&#039;s no dealing with a spinning turbine.

Utility systems, given the right price, can park large batteries around their territory and worry little about them.  Use them, replace them when they wear out.

By distributing them around the grid lots of supply issues are minimized.  Smaller transmission lines can be utilized and neighborhoods are less likely to go dark when a line goes down.

Utility managers, assuming large scale batteries mature, can simply contact the factory and order more storage.  It can be trucked in and plugged in.  No years of site location, permitting and construction.

If there is more storage in one area than needed the container can be loaded up and moved.

I think that modular aspect of batteries is going to make them very attractive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you look at what is happening utilities are installing large battery packs on their grid.  And we&#8217;re building very little new pump-up.</p>
<p>How will it play out over time?  That&#8217;s impossible to predict.  But if batteries get to the pump-up price point then they are likely to dominant the grid.  </p>
<p>Full disclosure &#8211; I&#8217;ve been off the grid for over 20 years.  I know that batteries work very well for storing electricity, I&#8217;m running on mine right now because the Sun has moved far to the west.  </p>
<p>Batteries are really low involvement technology.  They passively accept power when there is extra and give it back when the grid desires.  There&#8217;s no dealing with a spinning turbine.</p>
<p>Utility systems, given the right price, can park large batteries around their territory and worry little about them.  Use them, replace them when they wear out.</p>
<p>By distributing them around the grid lots of supply issues are minimized.  Smaller transmission lines can be utilized and neighborhoods are less likely to go dark when a line goes down.</p>
<p>Utility managers, assuming large scale batteries mature, can simply contact the factory and order more storage.  It can be trucked in and plugged in.  No years of site location, permitting and construction.</p>
<p>If there is more storage in one area than needed the container can be loaded up and moved.</p>
<p>I think that modular aspect of batteries is going to make them very attractive.</p>
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		<title>By: Onefinity</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/#comment-122522</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Onefinity]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 00:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=38602#comment-122522</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think any utility executive would choose a battery facility over a good pumped storage facility -- if they were looking for the widest functionality and longest-term cost effectiveness at a scale in the hundreds of megawatts. However, you are correct in that the projects will be chosen at least partly on their economic merits, so we shall see what happens.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think any utility executive would choose a battery facility over a good pumped storage facility &#8212; if they were looking for the widest functionality and longest-term cost effectiveness at a scale in the hundreds of megawatts. However, you are correct in that the projects will be chosen at least partly on their economic merits, so we shall see what happens.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/#comment-122509</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 19:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=38602#comment-122509</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course there is a comparison between pump-up hydro and batteries.  

You can compare them on the basis of cost.  Right now pump-up is probably cheaper, but new battery technology looks like that may not hold.

You can compare on life expectancy.  But that&#039;s really just a cost comparison.  It wouldn&#039;t matter if batteries lasted only a week if they were sufficiently cheaper to replace over the 75+ life of a pump-up project.

You can compare them on difficulty to site.  Shipping container sized batteries are easy to plop down on an appropriately zoned piece of land.  Obtaining land and getting it approved for pump-up is a major task.

You can compare them in terms of which is easiest to locate near point of generation or point of use.  Batteries win this one hands down.

I&#039;m neither a battery nor a pump-up advocate.  As well I don&#039;t advocate for CAES, thermal, or any of the other storage solutions being investigated.  

I don&#039;t think there will be a &#039;one size fits all&#039; solution.  But what I am seeing is that there seems to be a lot more activity and investment surrounding grid battery storage than any of the other technologies.  

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course there is a comparison between pump-up hydro and batteries.  </p>
<p>You can compare them on the basis of cost.  Right now pump-up is probably cheaper, but new battery technology looks like that may not hold.</p>
<p>You can compare on life expectancy.  But that&#8217;s really just a cost comparison.  It wouldn&#8217;t matter if batteries lasted only a week if they were sufficiently cheaper to replace over the 75+ life of a pump-up project.</p>
<p>You can compare them on difficulty to site.  Shipping container sized batteries are easy to plop down on an appropriately zoned piece of land.  Obtaining land and getting it approved for pump-up is a major task.</p>
<p>You can compare them in terms of which is easiest to locate near point of generation or point of use.  Batteries win this one hands down.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m neither a battery nor a pump-up advocate.  As well I don&#8217;t advocate for CAES, thermal, or any of the other storage solutions being investigated.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there will be a &#8216;one size fits all&#8217; solution.  But what I am seeing is that there seems to be a lot more activity and investment surrounding grid battery storage than any of the other technologies.  </p>
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		<title>By: Onefinity</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/#comment-122504</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Onefinity]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 18:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=38602#comment-122504</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is no comparison between pumped storage and batteries. Pumped storage can easily provide 10 to 15 or more hours of storage within normal cost parameters; batteries only 4 hours unless you want to spend 2x or 3x more. Pumped storage lifetimes are 75 years. Battery lifetimes are a (yet to be proven) 15 years. Pumped storage is first and foremost firm generating capacity with extreme speed and flexibility, with ability to double as load; batteries are best suited for an ancillary services market and are thus more dependent on that as well as on price arbitrage, which is of itself not a viable revenue generator in the U.S. As for location, batteries do have a modularity and location flexibility, but the reality is that there are more than sufficient viable pumped storage projects proposed in the U.S. today to most markets in the U.S. Battery advocates should simply address their particular niche and not even attempt to put themselves in the same class as pumped storage, or even CAES for that matter. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no comparison between pumped storage and batteries. Pumped storage can easily provide 10 to 15 or more hours of storage within normal cost parameters; batteries only 4 hours unless you want to spend 2x or 3x more. Pumped storage lifetimes are 75 years. Battery lifetimes are a (yet to be proven) 15 years. Pumped storage is first and foremost firm generating capacity with extreme speed and flexibility, with ability to double as load; batteries are best suited for an ancillary services market and are thus more dependent on that as well as on price arbitrage, which is of itself not a viable revenue generator in the U.S. As for location, batteries do have a modularity and location flexibility, but the reality is that there are more than sufficient viable pumped storage projects proposed in the U.S. today to most markets in the U.S. Battery advocates should simply address their particular niche and not even attempt to put themselves in the same class as pumped storage, or even CAES for that matter. </p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/#comment-122416</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 18:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=38602#comment-122416</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[True for existing pump-up.

We&#039;re going to need massive amounts of new storage.  The big question is which will give us the least cost/most usable storage.

We&#039;ve got tons of existing dams which can be converted to storage.  And some dams currently in use for generation could be upgraded for storage.

I&#039;ve lived near two CA dams which trapped spring runoff and used it for generation.  Later in the year water levels dropped (less head)  and generation hours were cut in order to stretch generation days.

If we built small holding reservoirs below those dams we could add additional pump/turbines and use them to gen large morning/evening output, replacing water during high wind/solar hours.

Then, during the infrequent periods of little wind/sun we could run them full out to make up for shortfall.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True for existing pump-up.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re going to need massive amounts of new storage.  The big question is which will give us the least cost/most usable storage.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve got tons of existing dams which can be converted to storage.  And some dams currently in use for generation could be upgraded for storage.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve lived near two CA dams which trapped spring runoff and used it for generation.  Later in the year water levels dropped (less head)  and generation hours were cut in order to stretch generation days.</p>
<p>If we built small holding reservoirs below those dams we could add additional pump/turbines and use them to gen large morning/evening output, replacing water during high wind/solar hours.</p>
<p>Then, during the infrequent periods of little wind/sun we could run them full out to make up for shortfall.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/#comment-122415</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ross]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 18:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=38602#comment-122415</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t mean advantage over battery just plus for pumped.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t mean advantage over battery just plus for pumped.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/#comment-122413</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ross]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 18:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=38602#comment-122413</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good to know.

One other advantage for pumped I&#039;ll hazard to guess is that for the most part the investment in pumped has already been made so for the operators this is like free money.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good to know.</p>
<p>One other advantage for pumped I&#8217;ll hazard to guess is that for the most part the investment in pumped has already been made so for the operators this is like free money.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/#comment-122410</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 18:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=38602#comment-122410</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[With double cycling batteries the initial investment is returned in approximately half the time.  That&#039;s a huge gain.

What we don&#039;t know, and won&#039;t know for a while, is cost per cycle for pump-up and battery storage.  

Battery has a huge location advantage - much easier to find locations and capable of being distributed which cuts transmission/infrastructure costs.  Battery is also quicker to bring on line and can be relocated if desired. 

Old factory sites should be ideal for large scale battery storage.  They won&#039;t object to sitting on brown fields, the land should be relatively inexpensive, and there should already be large power lines to the location. 

Current design is to fit the battery bank into stackable shipping container sized packages.  Build them in factories, rail/truck them to location, unload and plug in.  When they&#039;ve reached their cycle life end, truck/rail them back to the factory for rebuilding.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With double cycling batteries the initial investment is returned in approximately half the time.  That&#8217;s a huge gain.</p>
<p>What we don&#8217;t know, and won&#8217;t know for a while, is cost per cycle for pump-up and battery storage.  </p>
<p>Battery has a huge location advantage &#8211; much easier to find locations and capable of being distributed which cuts transmission/infrastructure costs.  Battery is also quicker to bring on line and can be relocated if desired. </p>
<p>Old factory sites should be ideal for large scale battery storage.  They won&#8217;t object to sitting on brown fields, the land should be relatively inexpensive, and there should already be large power lines to the location. </p>
<p>Current design is to fit the battery bank into stackable shipping container sized packages.  Build them in factories, rail/truck them to location, unload and plug in.  When they&#8217;ve reached their cycle life end, truck/rail them back to the factory for rebuilding.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob_Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/#comment-122409</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob_Wallace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 18:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=38602#comment-122409</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The same will be true for large scale battery storage.

Revenues will double meaning much faster return on investment.  Actually more than double when you add in money earned by grid smoothing in addition to two storage cycles per day.

Operating/maintenance costs will stay roughly flat.  (Except for moving parts wearing out sooner.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The same will be true for large scale battery storage.</p>
<p>Revenues will double meaning much faster return on investment.  Actually more than double when you add in money earned by grid smoothing in addition to two storage cycles per day.</p>
<p>Operating/maintenance costs will stay roughly flat.  (Except for moving parts wearing out sooner.)</p>
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		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/#comment-122406</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ross]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 17:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=38602#comment-122406</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This seems particularly good for pumped storage as unlike with batteries the extra cycle count will not cost too much extra in wear and tear on the generators.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This seems particularly good for pumped storage as unlike with batteries the extra cycle count will not cost too much extra in wear and tear on the generators.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Onefinity</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/29/solar-power-can-double-pumped-hydro-output-nice/#comment-122372</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Onefinity]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 13:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=38602#comment-122372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A parallel phenomenon, although not as dramatic in price swings, will be seen for pumped storage projects in the U.S. Southwest (e.g., the proposed Eldorado Pumped Storage project south of Las Vegas or Bison Peak near Tehachapi) if designed to blend the firming of both wind and PV solar into an intermediate-capacity delivery block. Winds in that region peak at night, so wind energy will tend to use the storage facility&#039;s capacity overnight. PV peaks mid-day, but load peak is not until later in the afternoon. So while pumped storage begins to generate in the morning using wind-pumped water, its output can be modulated to firm PV entering the grid during a less valuable period. Then, during the peak load block, pumped storage and PV generation are at full output.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A parallel phenomenon, although not as dramatic in price swings, will be seen for pumped storage projects in the U.S. Southwest (e.g., the proposed Eldorado Pumped Storage project south of Las Vegas or Bison Peak near Tehachapi) if designed to blend the firming of both wind and PV solar into an intermediate-capacity delivery block. Winds in that region peak at night, so wind energy will tend to use the storage facility&#8217;s capacity overnight. PV peaks mid-day, but load peak is not until later in the afternoon. So while pumped storage begins to generate in the morning using wind-pumped water, its output can be modulated to firm PV entering the grid during a less valuable period. Then, during the peak load block, pumped storage and PV generation are at full output.  </p>
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