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	<title>Comments on: Cap and Trade Dead?? Carbon Under 8 Euros!!</title>
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	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/27/cap-and-trade-dead-carbon-under-8-euros/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
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		<title>By: Record CO2 Reduction in US Cap &#38; Trade States &#124; CleanTechnica</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/27/cap-and-trade-dead-carbon-under-8-euros/#comment-111871</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Record CO2 Reduction in US Cap &#38; Trade States &#124; CleanTechnica]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 04:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=32475#comment-111871</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] (Previous: Cap and Trade Dead?? Carbon Under 8 Euros!!) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] (Previous: Cap and Trade Dead?? Carbon Under 8 Euros!!) [&#8230;]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/27/cap-and-trade-dead-carbon-under-8-euros/#comment-108367</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2011 02:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=32475#comment-108367</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I did not say that you could not buy some.

I said that it is very unlikely that you could cause dirty operations to cease because you bought all the possible credits.

Finite or infinite supply does not set the price.  The price is set by what one party is willing to pay and another party is willing to accept.

--

Tim DeChristopher was sent to prison (for ten years) because he bid on a permit without having the money on hand to purchase the permit.

He disrupted an auction.  Hideous crime, wasn&#039;t it?  Should have strung him up right there.

People who are convicted of stock manipulation typically get one to three year sentences.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did not say that you could not buy some.</p>
<p>I said that it is very unlikely that you could cause dirty operations to cease because you bought all the possible credits.</p>
<p>Finite or infinite supply does not set the price.  The price is set by what one party is willing to pay and another party is willing to accept.</p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p>Tim DeChristopher was sent to prison (for ten years) because he bid on a permit without having the money on hand to purchase the permit.</p>
<p>He disrupted an auction.  Hideous crime, wasn&#8217;t it?  Should have strung him up right there.</p>
<p>People who are convicted of stock manipulation typically get one to three year sentences.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/27/cap-and-trade-dead-carbon-under-8-euros/#comment-108359</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2011 22:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=32475#comment-108359</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course you can. Just go to a commodities broker and put in an order to buy. The catch is you have to pay for them; that&#039;s where whatshisname got into trouble bidding on mining licenses a few years ago. 

The permits are issued by European governments. There isn&#039;t an indefinite supply of them, or the price would have gone to zero already. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course you can. Just go to a commodities broker and put in an order to buy. The catch is you have to pay for them; that&#8217;s where whatshisname got into trouble bidding on mining licenses a few years ago. </p>
<p>The permits are issued by European governments. There isn&#8217;t an indefinite supply of them, or the price would have gone to zero already. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Catagori</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/27/cap-and-trade-dead-carbon-under-8-euros/#comment-108230</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Catagori]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=32475#comment-108230</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#Cap and trade works - again.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#Cap and trade works &#8211; again.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/27/cap-and-trade-dead-carbon-under-8-euros/#comment-108218</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 07:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=32475#comment-108218</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The lower the price goes, the less effect it has on anyone&#039;s planning or actions. That *is* a failure. What&#039;s the point of having a cap at all, if it&#039;s set well above the level of actual demand? And it&#039;s not because of the deployment of inexpensive clean energy projects. It&#039;s because of the initial oversupply of permits, followed by the slack economy of recent years, followed by the expectation of worse to come. (Plus greater reliance on gas, which while cleaner than coal, only gets you so far.) 

&lt;blockquote&gt; The price of carbon in the European Emissions Trading System (EU ETS) should be trading at three times today&#039;s levels according to new analysis by Bloomberg New Energy Finance of the long-term fundamentals in the emissions market. Looking at how the scheme will evolve up to 2020 and beyond, the price today should be €40 - 60/tCO2, compared to the [then-]current price of around €12 - 13/tCO2. By 2020 prices will need to rise to €60 to €90/tCO2.
Since the beginning of 2011 the European carbon price has traded between €10 and €19/tCO2. These low prices reflect oversupply caused by the accumulated surpluses of Phase II (2008-2012) largely created by the recession, as well as an increase in the volume of carbon credits imported from outside the EU. &lt;/blockquote&gt; http://www.bnef.com/PressReleases/view/165

&lt;blockquote&gt; Carbon prices have shed more than half their value since June, as the euro zone&#039;s worsening debt crisis choked demand for emissions permits.
The EU carbon market is also oversupplied with hundreds of millions of permits, and some analysts don&#039;t expect demand to outpace supply until 2020. 
...
Last week, UBS said the carbon price could bottom close to 3 euros, but other analysts said there is no real floor, especially if the EU enters another recession. &lt;/blockquote&gt; http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/24/us-carbon-price-record-low-idUSTRE7AN0UJ20111124

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The lower the price goes, the less effect it has on anyone&#8217;s planning or actions. That *is* a failure. What&#8217;s the point of having a cap at all, if it&#8217;s set well above the level of actual demand? And it&#8217;s not because of the deployment of inexpensive clean energy projects. It&#8217;s because of the initial oversupply of permits, followed by the slack economy of recent years, followed by the expectation of worse to come. (Plus greater reliance on gas, which while cleaner than coal, only gets you so far.) </p>
<blockquote><p> The price of carbon in the European Emissions Trading System (EU ETS) should be trading at three times today&#8217;s levels according to new analysis by Bloomberg New Energy Finance of the long-term fundamentals in the emissions market. Looking at how the scheme will evolve up to 2020 and beyond, the price today should be €40 &#8211; 60/tCO2, compared to the [then-]current price of around €12 &#8211; 13/tCO2. By 2020 prices will need to rise to €60 to €90/tCO2.<br />
Since the beginning of 2011 the European carbon price has traded between €10 and €19/tCO2. These low prices reflect oversupply caused by the accumulated surpluses of Phase II (2008-2012) largely created by the recession, as well as an increase in the volume of carbon credits imported from outside the EU. </p></blockquote>
<p> <a href="http://www.bnef.com/PressReleases/view/165" rel="nofollow">http://www.bnef.com/PressReleases/view/165</a></p>
<blockquote><p> Carbon prices have shed more than half their value since June, as the euro zone&#8217;s worsening debt crisis choked demand for emissions permits.<br />
The EU carbon market is also oversupplied with hundreds of millions of permits, and some analysts don&#8217;t expect demand to outpace supply until 2020.<br />
&#8230;<br />
Last week, UBS said the carbon price could bottom close to 3 euros, but other analysts said there is no real floor, especially if the EU enters another recession. </p></blockquote>
<p> <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/24/us-carbon-price-record-low-idUSTRE7AN0UJ20111124" rel="nofollow">http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/24/us-carbon-price-record-low-idUSTRE7AN0UJ20111124</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/27/cap-and-trade-dead-carbon-under-8-euros/#comment-108217</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 07:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=32475#comment-108217</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Butting in...

It&#039;s an interesting question.  My guess would be &#039;no&#039;.

It&#039;s the polluter trying to buy a &quot;pass&quot; from someone who can demonstrate that they can offset the polluter&#039;s pollution.  

To control the supply market you&#039;d have to buy up all the supply.  You would, for example, have to buy up/fund every potential reforestation project in the world.  I suspect it would be too expensive to corner the supply market.  

Especially since the remaining sellers would start jacking up prices as supplies tightened.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Butting in&#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s an interesting question.  My guess would be &#8216;no&#8217;.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the polluter trying to buy a &#8220;pass&#8221; from someone who can demonstrate that they can offset the polluter&#8217;s pollution.  </p>
<p>To control the supply market you&#8217;d have to buy up all the supply.  You would, for example, have to buy up/fund every potential reforestation project in the world.  I suspect it would be too expensive to corner the supply market.  </p>
<p>Especially since the remaining sellers would start jacking up prices as supplies tightened.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/27/cap-and-trade-dead-carbon-under-8-euros/#comment-108216</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 07:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=32475#comment-108216</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Susan,  Can a person or organization buy these carbon tradables which presently cost 7.68 and never intend to pollute with them?  Lets say someone wants to lower the amont of pollution by buying them so no one can use them to pollute with, would that work?  Companies some times buy back their own stock from shareholders so they can self control their company.  In other words if bill gates decided he wanted to stop Europe from polluting can he buy them and force the price of pollution up so high no one will be able to buy the tradables to pollute with?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Susan,  Can a person or organization buy these carbon tradables which presently cost 7.68 and never intend to pollute with them?  Lets say someone wants to lower the amont of pollution by buying them so no one can use them to pollute with, would that work?  Companies some times buy back their own stock from shareholders so they can self control their company.  In other words if bill gates decided he wanted to stop Europe from polluting can he buy them and force the price of pollution up so high no one will be able to buy the tradables to pollute with?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/27/cap-and-trade-dead-carbon-under-8-euros/#comment-108183</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2011 18:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=32475#comment-108183</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[An alternative explanation is that the cap and trade has caused businesses to do shady accounting to hide their carbon emissions, and the possible cost of getting caught is less than paying for carbon credits. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An alternative explanation is that the cap and trade has caused businesses to do shady accounting to hide their carbon emissions, and the possible cost of getting caught is less than paying for carbon credits. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/27/cap-and-trade-dead-carbon-under-8-euros/#comment-108173</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2011 14:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=32475#comment-108173</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for this excellent piece, Susan! Really clarifies several key points, and pcked full of other interesting info as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this excellent piece, Susan! Really clarifies several key points, and pcked full of other interesting info as well.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: George A. Fisher</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/27/cap-and-trade-dead-carbon-under-8-euros/#comment-108164</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[George A. Fisher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2011 11:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=32475#comment-108164</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Please kindly advise the provable savings of greenhouse gases]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please kindly advise the provable savings of greenhouse gases</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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