Natural Gas Can Power Vehicles OR Electric Power Plants

June 27, 2008 By Rod Adams 67 Comments

There is nothing really new about using Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) as a vehicle fuel. It works well in internal combustion engines and it is possible to squeeze enough energy on board in a reasonable size tank at a reasonable pressure to provide gasoline or diesel equivalent range. There are modification kits available for a number of automobiles, there is at least one production automobile (Honda Civic GX) and there are a number of options for buses (Viking CNG BS-III, New Flyer C/L30LF, C/L35LF, C/L40LF, etc.) suitable for municipal fleets.

The new thing, the reason that talk about CNG is growing, is that natural gas now costs about half as much per unit energy as gasoline and has an even greater cost advantage over diesel fuel.

With new software and lean-burning regimes available, CNG powered engines have improved their fuel economy to the point where they have reached essential parity with engines powered by the sister fossil fuels of gasoline and diesel. To compare fuel cost per mile, it is not a bad approximation to compare fuel costs per BTU, (or MMBTU, or therm).

I know, there are enough different units out there to cause some confusion, but if you want to do battle with the energy suppliers, you have to learn their language. Two thumb rules worth knowing – multiply the cost of natural gas in $/MMBTU by 6 and you will find out how much an oil equivalent barrel of natural gas costs. Multiply the cost of a gallon of diesel fuel by 7 and you will find out its cost in $/MMBTU.

One of my most frequently visited web sites is Bloomberg.com: Energy Prices where you can find the market prices for a number of different fuels. There you can find daily market prices (without taxes and retail mark ups) for natural gas, gasoline and distillate fuels (heating oil and diesel fuel are essentially the same composition.) Example: today, natural gas delivered to New York City gate (a trading hub) costs $13.92, the equivalent of $83.50 per barrel when converted to oil equivalent units. Diesel fuel costs $3.92 per gallon, the equivalent of $27.50 per MMBTU. Arm yourself with this information and you can see why people in decision making positions are looking hard at CNG again.

CNG vehicles have been around for a while, have good track records for safety and cleanliness, and have a growing pool of satisfied customers. The federal government also provides some generous subsidies for both individuals and fleet purchasers. Under the Energy Policy Act of 1992, natural gas qualifies as an alternative fuel, which gives it a certain tax status by providing EPAct credits.

Throw in those incentives, a shift in the market price to significantly favor natural gas and some long term marketing efforts by coalitions that include Sierra Club, NRDC, ExxonMobil, CleanAir.org, PowerCompare.org, Natural Gas Vehicle Association and Chesapeake Energy and you may soon see a lot more of those CNG vehicles on the road.

Of course, those who know me at all know that I have difficulty producing an energy related article without bringing up nuclear power, so here is the expected plug. In recent memory, natural gas has actually been far less expensive than it is today. In 2003, for example, an MIT study about energy futures assumed that the high price case would be $4.00 per MMBTU with about a 5% annual increase.

Using that prediction, gas should cost just $5.10 per MMBTU, not $13.92. The difference is that gas is now the “go to” electricity fuel. A little more than 20% of the electricity in the US is produced by burning natural gas – the quantity of gas consumed in power plants has increased by 30% since 2000.

When we begin building and operating new nuclear power plants, which run on abundant fuel that costs just $0.50 per MMBTU (including the waste storage fee), we will free up a lot of gas and drive down its market price. That will make room for a lot of domestically powered CNG vehicles and reduce the amount of oil that we need to import. (The reason I “shouted” the word OR in the title is that every BTU of gas can only be burned once. Every bit that burns in power plants cannot be burned in vehicle engines.)

That kind of talk makes it hard for aggressive nukes like me to build coalitions with other energy suppliers who are thoroughly enjoying their current market power, but how does it sound to you?

Photo credit – DC Metro CNG bus by Rod Adams under Creative Commons. (Taken in going home traffic on June 25, 2008)

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The Cleanest Cars on Earth: Honda Civic GX and Other Natural Gas Vehicles (NGVs)

Filed Under: Alternative Fuels, Clean Energy, Transportation Tech Tagged With: CNG, compressed natural gas, natural gas vehicle association, vehicle fuel

Marcus

Natural Gas is the clean energy that will get us to the renewable energy sources such as wind, solar and thermal. Its the Bridge we will have to use until those renewables are developed to take over some of the load. Two helpful energy sites: http://www.eia.doe.gov and http://www.naturalgasforamerica.com.
Marcus

Natural Gas is the clean energy that will get us to the renewable energy sources such as wind, solar and thermal. Its the Bridge we will have to use until those renewables are developed to take over some of the load. Two helpful energy sites: http://www.eia.doe.gov and http://www.naturalgasforamerica.com.
http://www.aftermarketcng.com AfterMarketCNG

I agree, I think one of the main benefits of natural gas is that it is an easy change to hydrogen technology when it is available.
http://www.aftermarketcng.com AfterMarketCNG

I agree, I think one of the main benefits of natural gas is that it is an easy change to hydrogen technology when it is available.
http://aftermarketcng.com/ AfterMarketCNG

I agree with just about everything you said. I think in the US the EPA is at the moment our biggest problem. There is a bill proposed by Utah at the moment to help force the EPA to get certification approved faster. At the moment the EPA is running certification as a business, and making some nice profits. Why do you think US based automakers offer NGVs overseas but refuse to in the US? They don’t want to deal with the EPA’s ridiculous “standards”.

http://www.aftermarketcng.com
http://aftermarketcng.com/ AfterMarketCNG

I agree with just about everything you said. I think in the US the EPA is at the moment our biggest problem. There is a bill proposed by Utah at the moment to help force the EPA to get certification approved faster. At the moment the EPA is running certification as a business, and making some nice profits. Why do you think US based automakers offer NGVs overseas but refuse to in the US? They don’t want to deal with the EPA’s ridiculous “standards”.

http://www.aftermarketcng.com
Bob

In the cng arguments that I have read, I have not seen the cost of compressing it to a practical storage pressure presented. Additionally, having driven a shop conversion (a pickup truck with a battery of six compressed gas cylinders in the front of the bed)a very pronounced reduction in performance was observed.
Bob

In the cng arguments that I have read, I have not seen the cost of compressing it to a practical storage pressure presented. Additionally, having driven a shop conversion (a pickup truck with a battery of six compressed gas cylinders in the front of the bed)a very pronounced reduction in performance was observed.
David Simmons

Rod,

I have always favored nuclear power but with a caveat. I worked in the industry in the early sixties, but left the field because of a dangerous complacency demonstrated by my coworkers. It seems to set in as folks become comfortable (way too comfortable) with what they’re doing. I’ve been out of the nuclear power loop for more than forty years, so maybe it’s harder to screw things up now than it was then. Other than that – nuclear power? Bring it on!
David Simmons

Rod,

I have always favored nuclear power but with a caveat. I worked in the industry in the early sixties, but left the field because of a dangerous complacency demonstrated by my coworkers. It seems to set in as folks become comfortable (way too comfortable) with what they’re doing. I’ve been out of the nuclear power loop for more than forty years, so maybe it’s harder to screw things up now than it was then. Other than that – nuclear power? Bring it on!
Edward

Michael McManus wrote:

“Where can I buy CNG converson kits for cars and trucksA list of dealers or can I become a dealer and installer? thanks”

Michael, I share your enthusiasm for the concept. It is logical that our society adopts a cleaner-burning, renewable fuel. But… try to act on this knowledge, and our beaurocrats will eat your life savings for lunch! The simplest dual fuel kits I mentioned above are seriously illegal to use! The fine is $5000 if you are caught with one!

Obviously, our laws need to change! If I, as a hobbyist, can reduce the pollution my diesel truck makes, while also reducing the amount of money sent to the middle east, our society benefits greatly! The kits I wrote of could be mounted by any moderately-skilled handyman. Imagine the impact for our country and planet if every diesel delivery truck, locomotive, big rig and barge was modified this way!

But- again- it is VERY ILLEGAL to do this! Without EPA and CARB certification, you run the risk of a $5ooo fine for “tampering” with a vehicle you own and paid for!

It is SO ironic- and indeed hypocritical- that NGV’s are subsidized, as are the home fueling kits- by the same govenment that wants to fine us so seriously for trying to apply the CNG advantages to hardware we already own! IMHO, it is a great example of socializing the costs while privatizing the benefits! It will cost you a vast sum of money to get ANY kit through the EPA- and said kit must also be vehicle-specific! You would be forced to charge $8,000+ PER VEHICLE to make it NG-ready and approved!

Meanwhile, I am certain that I could adapt my existing truck for under $2000 with equipment that already exists, in my own garage. But it is illegal to do so!

Everybody note: It is an election year. The people trying to win your approval would have the power to change the situation for the better. Anybody for lobbying?
Edward

Michael McManus wrote:

“Where can I buy CNG converson kits for cars and trucksA list of dealers or can I become a dealer and installer? thanks”

Michael, I share your enthusiasm for the concept. It is logical that our society adopts a cleaner-burning, renewable fuel. But… try to act on this knowledge, and our beaurocrats will eat your life savings for lunch! The simplest dual fuel kits I mentioned above are seriously illegal to use! The fine is $5000 if you are caught with one!

Obviously, our laws need to change! If I, as a hobbyist, can reduce the pollution my diesel truck makes, while also reducing the amount of money sent to the middle east, our society benefits greatly! The kits I wrote of could be mounted by any moderately-skilled handyman. Imagine the impact for our country and planet if every diesel delivery truck, locomotive, big rig and barge was modified this way!

But- again- it is VERY ILLEGAL to do this! Without EPA and CARB certification, you run the risk of a $5ooo fine for “tampering” with a vehicle you own and paid for!

It is SO ironic- and indeed hypocritical- that NGV’s are subsidized, as are the home fueling kits- by the same govenment that wants to fine us so seriously for trying to apply the CNG advantages to hardware we already own! IMHO, it is a great example of socializing the costs while privatizing the benefits! It will cost you a vast sum of money to get ANY kit through the EPA- and said kit must also be vehicle-specific! You would be forced to charge $8,000+ PER VEHICLE to make it NG-ready and approved!

Meanwhile, I am certain that I could adapt my existing truck for under $2000 with equipment that already exists, in my own garage. But it is illegal to do so!

Everybody note: It is an election year. The people trying to win your approval would have the power to change the situation for the better. Anybody for lobbying?
Michael McManus

Where can I buy CNG converson kits for cars and trucksA list of dealers or can I become a dealer and installer? thanks
Michael McManus

Where can I buy CNG converson kits for cars and trucksA list of dealers or can I become a dealer and installer? thanks
Edward

Folks: It is technically fairly easy to convert an existing diesel to dual fuel, using up to 70% natural gas and displacing significant amounts of diesel fuel. The problem for an individual is that it is currently wildly illegal to do so! All that is needed would be a suitable tank and a fumigation kit, which allows a metered spray of NG into your diesel’s intake stream. The NG ignites when diesel fuel is injected; NG cannot power a standard diesel in a stand-alone system without other modifications (spark plugs instead of glow plugs.) The fumigation kits already exist in the forms of propane injection and nitrous oxide.

Here is where I do not understand our regulators: Every site I have seen states that a dual-fuel diesel operates more cleanly than a stand-alone diesel, yet consumes far less non-renewable petroleum. (Methane can be produced in many ways, including biologically.) With these benefits, I fail to understand why addition of such a system is considered “tampering”, and subjects the user to a fine of $5000/day! How can a diesel owner “clean up his act” with such regulations?? How can we convert our existing hardware if we are threatened with large fines for doing so?? I want to avoid importing oil for my personal needs, and wish to make a contribution to clean air at the same time… but it seems impossible to take advantage of a duel-fueled diesel!
Edward

Folks: It is technically fairly easy to convert an existing diesel to dual fuel, using up to 70% natural gas and displacing significant amounts of diesel fuel. The problem for an individual is that it is currently wildly illegal to do so! All that is needed would be a suitable tank and a fumigation kit, which allows a metered spray of NG into your diesel’s intake stream. The NG ignites when diesel fuel is injected; NG cannot power a standard diesel in a stand-alone system without other modifications (spark plugs instead of glow plugs.) The fumigation kits already exist in the forms of propane injection and nitrous oxide.

Here is where I do not understand our regulators: Every site I have seen states that a dual-fuel diesel operates more cleanly than a stand-alone diesel, yet consumes far less non-renewable petroleum. (Methane can be produced in many ways, including biologically.) With these benefits, I fail to understand why addition of such a system is considered “tampering”, and subjects the user to a fine of $5000/day! How can a diesel owner “clean up his act” with such regulations?? How can we convert our existing hardware if we are threatened with large fines for doing so?? I want to avoid importing oil for my personal needs, and wish to make a contribution to clean air at the same time… but it seems impossible to take advantage of a duel-fueled diesel!
Jim

I live in the Los Angeles area. I understand that CNG conversion kits are available as well as small compressors, but I cannot find any information from Southern California Gas Company or on the web where I can have a full size van converted. Do you have any suggestions?
Jim

I live in the Los Angeles area. I understand that CNG conversion kits are available as well as small compressors, but I cannot find any information from Southern California Gas Company or on the web where I can have a full size van converted. Do you have any suggestions?
dave

re: bob June 28th, 2008 at 8:45 pm in regards to australia and natural gas

just a correction natural gas not common over here , out buses have just started running natural gas , compressed natural gas

what is popular over here is lpg/autogas
dave

re: bob June 28th, 2008 at 8:45 pm in regards to australia and natural gas

just a correction natural gas not common over here , out buses have just started running natural gas , compressed natural gas

what is popular over here is lpg/autogas
Doug Taylor

Some comments about NG fueled versus gasoline fueled vehicles.

A 20 gal gasoline tank is about 2.7 cubic feet, and is constructed of thin gauge steel. It is conformable, namely it can be thin, rectangular, square,or spherical, toroidal etc, etc and can be placed at any convenient location within the vehicle. It can be stored in 5 gal jerry cans, 3 gal plastic bottles etc. 20 gal of gasoline has an enthalpy of about 2.5 decatherms.

2.5 decatherms of Natural gas at 5000 psi occupies a volume of 60 gal(7.5 cubic feet), and throwing in the volume of the THICK GAUGE metal/fiberglass it is about 100 or so gallons, or about two 50 gallon barrels. Because of the high pressure constraints, the tank must be cylindrical, or spherical. Look inside your vehicle and imagine where you will place the two 50 gallon drums.

The natural gas grid is operated at about 100 psi, so the you need an electrical driven pump to pressurize from 100 to 5000 psi, which requires both time and energy.

In addition the natural gas grid is not everywhere like the electical grid. Imagine running out of fuel on a country road, or even on the interstate system–No 3 gal jerry cans at 5000 psi for natural gas.

It is true that the price of natural gas is about 1/2 that of petroleum products in the United State, however the US is a captive market, and the world price of NG is about the same as petroleum. Liquified natural gas (LNG) technology is fully developed, but it is only partially implemented. Within the next few years, because NG is the fuel of choice, it will be more fully implemented. For example all the natural gas from canada, which is transported by pipeline to the lower 48, will be shipped to the highest bidder– the ravenous energy appetites of the far east.
Doug Taylor

Some comments about NG fueled versus gasoline fueled vehicles.

A 20 gal gasoline tank is about 2.7 cubic feet, and is constructed of thin gauge steel. It is conformable, namely it can be thin, rectangular, square,or spherical, toroidal etc, etc and can be placed at any convenient location within the vehicle. It can be stored in 5 gal jerry cans, 3 gal plastic bottles etc. 20 gal of gasoline has an enthalpy of about 2.5 decatherms.

2.5 decatherms of Natural gas at 5000 psi occupies a volume of 60 gal(7.5 cubic feet), and throwing in the volume of the THICK GAUGE metal/fiberglass it is about 100 or so gallons, or about two 50 gallon barrels. Because of the high pressure constraints, the tank must be cylindrical, or spherical. Look inside your vehicle and imagine where you will place the two 50 gallon drums.

The natural gas grid is operated at about 100 psi, so the you need an electrical driven pump to pressurize from 100 to 5000 psi, which requires both time and energy.

In addition the natural gas grid is not everywhere like the electical grid. Imagine running out of fuel on a country road, or even on the interstate system–No 3 gal jerry cans at 5000 psi for natural gas.

It is true that the price of natural gas is about 1/2 that of petroleum products in the United State, however the US is a captive market, and the world price of NG is about the same as petroleum. Liquified natural gas (LNG) technology is fully developed, but it is only partially implemented. Within the next few years, because NG is the fuel of choice, it will be more fully implemented. For example all the natural gas from canada, which is transported by pipeline to the lower 48, will be shipped to the highest bidder– the ravenous energy appetites of the far east.
Clean_Burning

In an admirable bid to ease US dependence on crude oil, Boone Pickens—founder and chairman of Clean Energy Fuels—recently addressed Congress with an energy plan that offers a solution to the annual $700 billion (and growing) problem, which is foreign oil.

Mr. Pickens believes that it’s a matter of demand exceeding supply that is mostly to blame for the world’s energy crisis. His solution depends on Natural Gas Vehicles (NGV’s) reducing oil imports by 38% while emitting up to 95% less pollution than gasoline or diesel vehicles.

In fact, the Environmental Protection Agency found NGVs to be the cleanest-burning of all vehicles and in practicing what they preach, EPA’s fleet operates solely on Natural Gas.

With the ever-growing popularity of the Honda Civic GX (an NGV,) there are over 150, 000 NGVs on US roads today and over 5 million worldwide!
Clean_Burning

In an admirable bid to ease US dependence on crude oil, Boone Pickens—founder and chairman of Clean Energy Fuels—recently addressed Congress with an energy plan that offers a solution to the annual $700 billion (and growing) problem, which is foreign oil.

Mr. Pickens believes that it’s a matter of demand exceeding supply that is mostly to blame for the world’s energy crisis. His solution depends on Natural Gas Vehicles (NGV’s) reducing oil imports by 38% while emitting up to 95% less pollution than gasoline or diesel vehicles.

In fact, the Environmental Protection Agency found NGVs to be the cleanest-burning of all vehicles and in practicing what they preach, EPA’s fleet operates solely on Natural Gas.

With the ever-growing popularity of the Honda Civic GX (an NGV,) there are over 150, 000 NGVs on US roads today and over 5 million worldwide!
Jerry

Europe is using CNG and LPG for decades. They are not crying about prices. Why? LPG and CNG price is always 1/2 of gasoline price. Nederland, Italy and Poland are the biggest users. You can convert any old car in to CNG or LPG. Every automaker has in offer new car with CNG or LPG. People are using NG and LPG to heat homes and businesses. Demand for those fuels is increasing every year but the prices are staying low.

Companies in USA very offen are fixing prices for high demand product. As a exaple is cost of SMS in cell phone companies. In USA price is skyrocketing for SMS and at the same time in Europe price is going down (cost 3 cents per SMS)because of competition on the market. So I will be not suprise if the american companies will fix the prices foe CNG and LPG when will be high demand.
Jerry

Europe is using CNG and LPG for decades. They are not crying about prices. Why? LPG and CNG price is always 1/2 of gasoline price. Nederland, Italy and Poland are the biggest users. You can convert any old car in to CNG or LPG. Every automaker has in offer new car with CNG or LPG. People are using NG and LPG to heat homes and businesses. Demand for those fuels is increasing every year but the prices are staying low.

Companies in USA very offen are fixing prices for high demand product. As a exaple is cost of SMS in cell phone companies. In USA price is skyrocketing for SMS and at the same time in Europe price is going down (cost 3 cents per SMS)because of competition on the market. So I will be not suprise if the american companies will fix the prices foe CNG and LPG when will be high demand.
Clean_Burning

According to Popular Science (a leading source of science and technology news) the Honda Civic GX is “the highest performing investment one could hope for.” Their conclusion was based on a long-term evaluation “to test the viability of a Natural-Gas vehicle in daily driving” and to evaluate the home refueling station that fuels the Honda Civic GX overnight.

GX Cost: $27,500

(includes license, registration and DMV fees)

Tax Credit: -$4,000

Total Cost $23,500

Note: I am not sure the interest cost over 5 year period

Fuel: $7,475

(based on average 500 gge/yr X $2.99/gge)

Maintenance: $160

(oil change every 10,000 miles)

Insurance:$5,500

(five year total)

5Year Cost Analysis $36,635

(w/o interest)

With nearly zero emissions, The American Council for Energy-Efficient Economy called the GX the cleanest-burning internal-combustion vehicle on Earth! Such environmental benefits coupled with the low fuel costs-about $1.20-$1.40 per gallon made this GX the smart investment.
Clean_Burning

According to Popular Science (a leading source of science and technology news) the Honda Civic GX is “the highest performing investment one could hope for.” Their conclusion was based on a long-term evaluation “to test the viability of a Natural-Gas vehicle in daily driving” and to evaluate the home refueling station that fuels the Honda Civic GX overnight.

GX Cost: $27,500

(includes license, registration and DMV fees)

Tax Credit: -$4,000

Total Cost $23,500

Note: I am not sure the interest cost over 5 year period

Fuel: $7,475

(based on average 500 gge/yr X $2.99/gge)

Maintenance: $160

(oil change every 10,000 miles)

Insurance:$5,500

(five year total)

5Year Cost Analysis $36,635

(w/o interest)

With nearly zero emissions, The American Council for Energy-Efficient Economy called the GX the cleanest-burning internal-combustion vehicle on Earth! Such environmental benefits coupled with the low fuel costs-about $1.20-$1.40 per gallon made this GX the smart investment.
Mark Watson

You don’t have to ‘buy’ a CNG vehicle. You can just convert it. The best conversion kit is made by a company in Argentina called Galileo. Argentina has been on natural gas for a long time, so they’ve had a couple decades to figure out all the bugs and regulations. CNGOutfitters.com is the US distributer for the kits. They have imported several thousand kits and tanks. They will probably go fast – maybe not now, but when gas hits $6 a gallon, there are going to be some angry people running around.
Mark Watson

You don’t have to ‘buy’ a CNG vehicle. You can just convert it. The best conversion kit is made by a company in Argentina called Galileo. Argentina has been on natural gas for a long time, so they’ve had a couple decades to figure out all the bugs and regulations. CNGOutfitters.com is the US distributer for the kits. They have imported several thousand kits and tanks. They will probably go fast – maybe not now, but when gas hits $6 a gallon, there are going to be some angry people running around.
Josh

I think it should also be added that biogas, the renewable replacement for natural gas, is one of the easiest biofuels to produce because methane, CH4, is such a simple compound compared to Ethanol (C2H5OH) or Bio-diesel (CH3OCO(CH2)12CH3).
Josh

I think it should also be added that biogas, the renewable replacement for natural gas, is one of the easiest biofuels to produce because methane, CH4, is such a simple compound compared to Ethanol (C2H5OH) or Bio-diesel (CH3OCO(CH2)12CH3).
ondrejch

ChrisB> The same recycling as done in France is under way in the US as well:

http://www.dcsmox.com/

http://www.areva-nc.com/scripts/areva-nc/publigen/content/templates/show.asp?P=7663&L=EN&SYNC=Y

and by the same French-based company Areva, indeed.

I hope your misgivings are dropping
ondrejch

ChrisB> The same recycling as done in France is under way in the US as well:

http://www.dcsmox.com/

http://www.areva-nc.com/scripts/areva-nc/publigen/content/templates/show.asp?P=7663&L=EN&SYNC=Y

and by the same French-based company Areva, indeed.

I hope your misgivings are dropping
ondrejch

maya> solutions to deal with the nuclear so-called waste exist for decades – recycle the fuel using MOX fuel in current reactors, and ultimately in LMFR breeders, MSR burners or alike. The resulting “waste” – fission fragments – need to be shielded from the environent for several hundred years only, which is a trivial engineering problem. Actually all those fission fragments are indeed rare materials with unique properties, all with many uses in industry and medicine already – but until reprocessing becomes commonplace, separating these elements is uneconomical.

Interestingly, the groups which are the loudest proponents of all kinds of recycling, are very stubborn in their opposition against nuclear fuel recycling. Perhaps because this recycling – technically the “closed nuclear cycle” – makes the nuclear power sustainable for tens of thousands of years at the very least, which is against their dogma?
ondrejch

maya> solutions to deal with the nuclear so-called waste exist for decades – recycle the fuel using MOX fuel in current reactors, and ultimately in LMFR breeders, MSR burners or alike. The resulting “waste” – fission fragments – need to be shielded from the environent for several hundred years only, which is a trivial engineering problem. Actually all those fission fragments are indeed rare materials with unique properties, all with many uses in industry and medicine already – but until reprocessing becomes commonplace, separating these elements is uneconomical.

Interestingly, the groups which are the loudest proponents of all kinds of recycling, are very stubborn in their opposition against nuclear fuel recycling. Perhaps because this recycling – technically the “closed nuclear cycle” – makes the nuclear power sustainable for tens of thousands of years at the very least, which is against their dogma?
http://www.cngaz.com David Clement

Natural gas is becoming more renewable all the time as we tap into free sources- Land fill gas from garbage dumps and biogas from dairies.

Most natural gas is delivered by regulated utilities, thats why its a safe bet to use clean natural gas and you can actually plug that cost into a yearly budget with no surprises.

Natural gas is also domestic, we do not import it so its disconnected from world supply problems.

We have 4 CNG vehicles at our house and fuel in our driveway with a fuelmaker, we laugh when we drive past the corner gas station, we are fueling for less than half the cost of unleaded.
http://www.cngaz.com David Clement

Natural gas is becoming more renewable all the time as we tap into free sources- Land fill gas from garbage dumps and biogas from dairies.

Most natural gas is delivered by regulated utilities, thats why its a safe bet to use clean natural gas and you can actually plug that cost into a yearly budget with no surprises.

Natural gas is also domestic, we do not import it so its disconnected from world supply problems.

We have 4 CNG vehicles at our house and fuel in our driveway with a fuelmaker, we laugh when we drive past the corner gas station, we are fueling for less than half the cost of unleaded.
Bob

I recently returned from Australia where it’s quite common to use natural gas for automobiles – and many stations sell natural gas.

For us yankees, we can’t say we want to buy gas – because the Australians assume natural gas. So you have to say petrol. By the way, gas – er, petrol, is quite expensive in Australia and New Zealand ($8/gallon) and life goes on – many people are driving.and the economies are doing well.
Bob

I recently returned from Australia where it’s quite common to use natural gas for automobiles – and many stations sell natural gas.

For us yankees, we can’t say we want to buy gas – because the Australians assume natural gas. So you have to say petrol. By the way, gas – er, petrol, is quite expensive in Australia and New Zealand ($8/gallon) and life goes on – many people are driving.and the economies are doing well.
http://maintenancemastery.wordpress.com/ John Tindale

Many power turbines already run on natural gas, diesel, and on no 2 heating oil. This is one of the reasons why electric prices go up when fuel prices go up. Its called the law of conservation of energy.
http://maintenancemastery.wordpress.com/ John Tindale

Many power turbines already run on natural gas, diesel, and on no 2 heating oil. This is one of the reasons why electric prices go up when fuel prices go up. Its called the law of conservation of energy.
http://atomicinsights.blogspot.com Rod Adams

@ Michael JC:

I fully recognize that gas prices have increased, but the comparison between their current price on a cost per unit heat basis and the current price of diesel fuel on a cost per unit heat basis is what makes gas a potentially competitive vehicle fuel.

I also proposed a partial solution to high and increasing natural gas prices – reduce natural gas consumption in power plants.
http://atomicinsights.blogspot.com Rod Adams

@ Michael JC:

I fully recognize that gas prices have increased, but the comparison between their current price on a cost per unit heat basis and the current price of diesel fuel on a cost per unit heat basis is what makes gas a potentially competitive vehicle fuel.

I also proposed a partial solution to high and increasing natural gas prices – reduce natural gas consumption in power plants.
ChrisB

I have read that the French recycle nuclear waste and get even more energy from that fuel source. That also greatly reduces the level of nuclear waste. If power companies in this country were to do the same as the French, my misgivings about nuclear power would drop substantially.

Of course I may be wrong about this.
ChrisB

I have read that the French recycle nuclear waste and get even more energy from that fuel source. That also greatly reduces the level of nuclear waste. If power companies in this country were to do the same as the French, my misgivings about nuclear power would drop substantially.

Of course I may be wrong about this.
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http://www.tutorialsgarden.com/tutorials/Maya/ Maya Tutorials

@It makes no sense to chase around after the lowest-cost fossil fuel of the moment when ultimately all of them are non-renewable, polluting energy sources. Our time and effort are much better spent driving innovation in renewable, sustainable technologies. And no, Mr. Adams, nuclear fission is neither renewable nor sustainable. It may not be you or I, but at some point people are going to have to deal with that radioactive waste. Burying it in the ground for future generations to deal with is irresponsible.

You are absolutely right about that.
http://www.tutorialsgarden.com/tutorials/Maya/ Maya Tutorials

@It makes no sense to chase around after the lowest-cost fossil fuel of the moment when ultimately all of them are non-renewable, polluting energy sources. Our time and effort are much better spent driving innovation in renewable, sustainable technologies. And no, Mr. Adams, nuclear fission is neither renewable nor sustainable. It may not be you or I, but at some point people are going to have to deal with that radioactive waste. Burying it in the ground for future generations to deal with is irresponsible.

You are absolutely right about that.
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JC

Wouldn’t this cause the price of NG to go up significantly. That’s a problem if you heat your house with it. I can ride the bus to work but I really need to heat my house. It already costs a bit much.
JC

Wouldn’t this cause the price of NG to go up significantly. That’s a problem if you heat your house with it. I can ride the bus to work but I really need to heat my house. It already costs a bit much.
http://www.artformfunction.com Michael

Have you actually looked at the price trends in natural gas in the last year?

http://www.oilnergy.com/1gnymex.htm#year
http://www.artformfunction.com Michael

Have you actually looked at the price trends in natural gas in the last year?

http://www.oilnergy.com/1gnymex.htm#year
http://redgreenandblue.org Rod Adams

@ Mr. Sinister:

Burying valuable by-products that can be used as raw material by current and future generations would be completely irresponsible.

Nuclear fission may not be “renewable”, but it is certainly sustainable for thousands of years at an increasing rate. For all I know, fission might even be renewable, but that would depend on how one defines that rather politically charged word.

You and I do agree on one point. Increasing the use of natural gas in vehicles without making changes in its consumption for electrical power would cause a rapid price increase. That would probably happen with just a slight shift because there is not much available gas capacity right now.

My analysis, however, puts the blame for that market condition squarely on the massive increases in the use of gas in the electrical power market when nuclear fission could do the job more cleanly, more safely and with far less waste.
http://redgreenandblue.org Rod Adams

@ Mr. Sinister:

Burying valuable by-products that can be used as raw material by current and future generations would be completely irresponsible.

Nuclear fission may not be “renewable”, but it is certainly sustainable for thousands of years at an increasing rate. For all I know, fission might even be renewable, but that would depend on how one defines that rather politically charged word.

You and I do agree on one point. Increasing the use of natural gas in vehicles without making changes in its consumption for electrical power would cause a rapid price increase. That would probably happen with just a slight shift because there is not much available gas capacity right now.

My analysis, however, puts the blame for that market condition squarely on the massive increases in the use of gas in the electrical power market when nuclear fission could do the job more cleanly, more safely and with far less waste.
Mr. Sinister

What kind of sense does this make??? Yes, natural gas is currently less expensive than gasoline. However, what do you suppose would happen to the price of natural gas if everyone started using it to power their vehicles? Very good, children, it would begin to rise as a result of increasing demand. Then, of course, you would start to see costs increase for those who heat their homes and businesses with natural gas. Sounds a lot like what’s happening today with petroleum and it’s derivatives, doesn’t it? After a while, I suppose people would be outraged at the skyrocketing price of natural gas, and we would decide it’s a good idea to switch back to gasoline (which by this time would be dirt cheap again).

It makes no sense to chase around after the lowest-cost fossil fuel of the moment when ultimately all of them are non-renewable, polluting energy sources. Our time and effort are much better spent driving innovation in renewable, sustainable technologies. And no, Mr. Adams, nuclear fission is neither renewable nor sustainable. It may not be you or I, but at some point people are going to have to deal with that radioactive waste. Burying it in the ground for future generations to deal with is irresponsible.
Mr. Sinister

What kind of sense does this make??? Yes, natural gas is currently less expensive than gasoline. However, what do you suppose would happen to the price of natural gas if everyone started using it to power their vehicles? Very good, children, it would begin to rise as a result of increasing demand. Then, of course, you would start to see costs increase for those who heat their homes and businesses with natural gas. Sounds a lot like what’s happening today with petroleum and it’s derivatives, doesn’t it? After a while, I suppose people would be outraged at the skyrocketing price of natural gas, and we would decide it’s a good idea to switch back to gasoline (which by this time would be dirt cheap again).

It makes no sense to chase around after the lowest-cost fossil fuel of the moment when ultimately all of them are non-renewable, polluting energy sources. Our time and effort are much better spent driving innovation in renewable, sustainable technologies. And no, Mr. Adams, nuclear fission is neither renewable nor sustainable. It may not be you or I, but at some point people are going to have to deal with that radioactive waste. Burying it in the ground for future generations to deal with is irresponsible.
r setephson

Ahh, for those that DONT know, before you bash America, google.

You can buy everthing from FORD to GM to Chrysler and others in the US as CNG.

A vehicle customizer buys the unit from them and converts the vehicles with factory approval and warranty intact.

One big company is in Dallas, Tx. – Take that you liberal hypocrites on the west coast.
r setephson

Ahh, for those that DONT know, before you bash America, google.

You can buy everthing from FORD to GM to Chrysler and others in the US as CNG.

A vehicle customizer buys the unit from them and converts the vehicles with factory approval and warranty intact.

One big company is in Dallas, Tx. – Take that you liberal hypocrites on the west coast.
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http://redgreenandblue.org Rod Adams

Eddy:

We have been operating nuclear plants and handling the by-products for more than 50 years. Can you tell me of a single case of anyone getting hurt by exposure to those stored left overs.

In contrast, there are many studies that indicate that tens of thousands of people die early deaths every year from exposure to the routine toxic waste products that are released by all fossil fuel plants.
http://redgreenandblue.org Rod Adams

Eddy:

We have been operating nuclear plants and handling the by-products for more than 50 years. Can you tell me of a single case of anyone getting hurt by exposure to those stored left overs.

In contrast, there are many studies that indicate that tens of thousands of people die early deaths every year from exposure to the routine toxic waste products that are released by all fossil fuel plants.
Loy Brent

We need CNG now. I don’t understand why our friends in Europe can buy CNG vehicles from eight or so automakers including American companies Ford and GM and we can’t in our country. Thankfully, Honda is at it again leading the pack with forward thinking CNG models. Consumers need to demand CNG as a transportation fuel in our country. It costs 50% less and emits over 65% less pollution. We have the answer in American – natural gas. It is abundant, affordable and it is pure American. We need CNG now.
Loy Brent

We need CNG now. I don’t understand why our friends in Europe can buy CNG vehicles from eight or so automakers including American companies Ford and GM and we can’t in our country. Thankfully, Honda is at it again leading the pack with forward thinking CNG models. Consumers need to demand CNG as a transportation fuel in our country. It costs 50% less and emits over 65% less pollution. We have the answer in American – natural gas. It is abundant, affordable and it is pure American. We need CNG now.
http://www.grumpyoldman.be Eddy De Clercq

Hi,

CNG can be a good alternative as an intermediate solution to hydrogen power. As mentioned in http://www.grumpyoldman.be/grumpys-news-flashes-xx/ one seems to have understood this in The Netherlands. One doesn’t seem to be that far yet. There is only one car available and there aren’t any public filling stations. Thus one need to pay 4780 Euro for the filling station at home + 800 euro extra installation costs.

A cheaper alternative might be woodgas as mentioned in http://www.grumpyoldman.be/wood-you-believe-it/

I don’t believe that nuclear power plants can be useful though. Maybe they can lower the price and it’s CO2 friendly, but you’re left with much toxic waste. How much is your health and the one of your children worth for cheaper gas?

Eddy
http://www.grumpyoldman.be Eddy De Clercq

Hi,

CNG can be a good alternative as an intermediate solution to hydrogen power. As mentioned in http://www.grumpyoldman.be/grumpys-news-flashes-xx/ one seems to have understood this in The Netherlands. One doesn’t seem to be that far yet. There is only one car available and there aren’t any public filling stations. Thus one need to pay 4780 Euro for the filling station at home + 800 euro extra installation costs.

A cheaper alternative might be woodgas as mentioned in http://www.grumpyoldman.be/wood-you-believe-it/

I don’t believe that nuclear power plants can be useful though. Maybe they can lower the price and it’s CO2 friendly, but you’re left with much toxic waste. How much is your health and the one of your children worth for cheaper gas?

Eddy