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	<title>Comments on: Power Plant Efficiency Hasn&#8217;t Improved Since 1957</title>
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	<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/</link>
	<description>Clean Tech News &#38; Views: Solar Energy News. Wind Energy News. EV News. &#38; More.</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Lee Bell</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-230401</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lee Bell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2014 01:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-230401</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What you just described is actually done in many places.  Many larger companies, colleges around the country have been doing that for some years now.  Large buildings such as malls are  switching over to that setup also.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What you just described is actually done in many places.  Many larger companies, colleges around the country have been doing that for some years now.  Large buildings such as malls are  switching over to that setup also.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: georgevoll22</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-221689</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[georgevoll22]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2014 01:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-221689</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[33% sounds good to me. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>33% sounds good to me. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: George Antrobus</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-152783</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[George Antrobus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-152783</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For anyone who (like me) finds this old article in a web search --

33% is the limit of feasible efficiency for heat cycle power plants using water.  This is based on fundamental physics, the very practical choice of water as material for the heat cycle, and the necessity of using Mother Earth as the heatsink.

So coal/oil/nuclear power plant thermal efficiency hasn&#039;t improved for a long time, because the plants of generations ago were so well engineered, that they already were at the limit of what was possible.

At the same time conventional steam-cycle power plants were perfected, automotive engines were atrociously inefficient, operating far below their theoretical efficiency (which for a conventional Otto-cycle gasoline piston engine is poor to begin with).  In recent generations, real progress has been made in moving them closer to their limit of efficiency.

The author&#039;s thesis, that the failure to make progress follows from the regulatory scheme, seems deeply misguided.  Getting electricity out at 33% is as good as they can do.  And if the operators could sell more revenue-generating power for a dollar of capital investment, I expect they would!

It&#039;s true that part of the 67% waste heat might be used for heating -- but heating homes or offices by direct distribution is only practical in dense areas (urban centers), like the underground steam pipes in New York City, and the power plant must be very close to where the heat is needed.  Steam power plants are most practical and cost-efficient at large scales.  If you think you can site a 3000 MWt power plant (say, coal-oil or nuclear) in Manhattan, then I say go for it!

Probably the best way to make use of waste heat would be to site factories that need lots of heat energy -- but not high temperature (the waste heat isn&#039;t available very hot) next door to big power plants.  These factories would have to accommodate the need for their associated electric generating plants to change power levels or completely shut down due to scheduled maintenance, occasional mishaps, and variations in electric grid load.

But there&#039;s a bright side to all this (if you love fracking!).  Natural gas plants, which are proliferating rapidly, use much higher temperatures in their heat cycles and so have higher limits of theoretical efficiency.  They are currently claimed to operate as high as 60%.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For anyone who (like me) finds this old article in a web search &#8212;</p>
<p>33% is the limit of feasible efficiency for heat cycle power plants using water.  This is based on fundamental physics, the very practical choice of water as material for the heat cycle, and the necessity of using Mother Earth as the heatsink.</p>
<p>So coal/oil/nuclear power plant thermal efficiency hasn&#8217;t improved for a long time, because the plants of generations ago were so well engineered, that they already were at the limit of what was possible.</p>
<p>At the same time conventional steam-cycle power plants were perfected, automotive engines were atrociously inefficient, operating far below their theoretical efficiency (which for a conventional Otto-cycle gasoline piston engine is poor to begin with).  In recent generations, real progress has been made in moving them closer to their limit of efficiency.</p>
<p>The author&#8217;s thesis, that the failure to make progress follows from the regulatory scheme, seems deeply misguided.  Getting electricity out at 33% is as good as they can do.  And if the operators could sell more revenue-generating power for a dollar of capital investment, I expect they would!</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that part of the 67% waste heat might be used for heating &#8212; but heating homes or offices by direct distribution is only practical in dense areas (urban centers), like the underground steam pipes in New York City, and the power plant must be very close to where the heat is needed.  Steam power plants are most practical and cost-efficient at large scales.  If you think you can site a 3000 MWt power plant (say, coal-oil or nuclear) in Manhattan, then I say go for it!</p>
<p>Probably the best way to make use of waste heat would be to site factories that need lots of heat energy &#8212; but not high temperature (the waste heat isn&#8217;t available very hot) next door to big power plants.  These factories would have to accommodate the need for their associated electric generating plants to change power levels or completely shut down due to scheduled maintenance, occasional mishaps, and variations in electric grid load.</p>
<p>But there&#8217;s a bright side to all this (if you love fracking!).  Natural gas plants, which are proliferating rapidly, use much higher temperatures in their heat cycles and so have higher limits of theoretical efficiency.  They are currently claimed to operate as high as 60%.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-134599</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 15:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-134599</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How our world can use 50% less electricity &amp; save money:

Double the alternating current&#039;s frequency, then half-wave rectify it at
 the last distribution point before the consumer. The consumer will 
receive rapidly pulsed, turned on and off electricity. This on and off 
pulsing, of their electricity, uses 50% less electricity. This means 
that the electricity generation power plants can be running 50% less, 
which means less pollution. It should also mean a 50% smaller electric 
bill.

There are several ways to convert alternating current to 
pulsed current, which will use 50% less electricity, and will cause much
 less pollution.

There are three current types: direct current, 
alternating current, and pulsed current. Pulsed current uses 50% less 
electricity.

This DOES NOT violate any conservation of energy laws of physics.





It&#039;s like turning a light switch
 on and off quickly. If it&#039;s done quickly enough, you won&#039;t see the 
light flicker, because of human vision.

Verify the concept experimentally by using a variable frequency drive in
 series with a diode. Start the experiments on lights and report back on
 your results.


If an electric clock is powered at twice its frequency, then it will run
 twice as fast. If the power is half-wave rectified, then it will run on
 time using half of the electricity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How our world can use 50% less electricity &amp; save money:</p>
<p>Double the alternating current&#8217;s frequency, then half-wave rectify it at<br />
 the last distribution point before the consumer. The consumer will<br />
receive rapidly pulsed, turned on and off electricity. This on and off<br />
pulsing, of their electricity, uses 50% less electricity. This means<br />
that the electricity generation power plants can be running 50% less,<br />
which means less pollution. It should also mean a 50% smaller electric<br />
bill.</p>
<p>There are several ways to convert alternating current to<br />
pulsed current, which will use 50% less electricity, and will cause much<br />
 less pollution.</p>
<p>There are three current types: direct current,<br />
alternating current, and pulsed current. Pulsed current uses 50% less<br />
electricity.</p>
<p>This DOES NOT violate any conservation of energy laws of physics.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like turning a light switch<br />
 on and off quickly. If it&#8217;s done quickly enough, you won&#8217;t see the<br />
light flicker, because of human vision.</p>
<p>Verify the concept experimentally by using a variable frequency drive in<br />
 series with a diode. Start the experiments on lights and report back on<br />
 your results.</p>
<p>If an electric clock is powered at twice its frequency, then it will run<br />
 twice as fast. If the power is half-wave rectified, then it will run on<br />
 time using half of the electricity.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: randall stumler</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-1326</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[randall stumler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:39:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-1326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Deregulation worked well in California.  Perhaps it should be implemented nation wide.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deregulation worked well in California.  Perhaps it should be implemented nation wide.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: randall stumler</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-17985</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[randall stumler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-17985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Deregulation worked well in California.  Perhaps it should be implemented nation wide.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deregulation worked well in California.  Perhaps it should be implemented nation wide.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: asdf</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-1325</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[asdf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 04:15:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-1325</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course, a moderator is going to delete my comment...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, a moderator is going to delete my comment&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: asdf</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-1324</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[asdf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 04:14:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-1324</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow, nobody&#039;s posted anything since July 11th of last year... of course, somebody&#039;s going to find this in 2019 and say the same thing I did...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, nobody&#8217;s posted anything since July 11th of last year&#8230; of course, somebody&#8217;s going to find this in 2019 and say the same thing I did&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: arslan rashid</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-1323</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[arslan rashid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-1323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i think there is not much room left in terms of improvement of effecincy of steam power plants]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think there is not much room left in terms of improvement of effecincy of steam power plants</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: arslan rashid</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-17984</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[arslan rashid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-17984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i think there is not much room left in terms of improvement of effecincy of steam power plants]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think there is not much room left in terms of improvement of effecincy of steam power plants</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom Blakeslee</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-1322</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Blakeslee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:57:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-1322</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[An excellent and thought-provoking article. Cooling towers dispose of heat as though it is a nuisance, though it is really a valuable source of energy. Greenhouses, drying plants and fish farms are all good ways to use excess heat even in remote powerplant locations. There must be a way to change the laws to encourage this kind of development.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent and thought-provoking article. Cooling towers dispose of heat as though it is a nuisance, though it is really a valuable source of energy. Greenhouses, drying plants and fish farms are all good ways to use excess heat even in remote powerplant locations. There must be a way to change the laws to encourage this kind of development.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom Blakeslee</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-17983</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Blakeslee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-17983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[An excellent and thought-provoking article. Cooling towers dispose of heat as though it is a nuisance, though it is really a valuable source of energy. Greenhouses, drying plants and fish farms are all good ways to use excess heat even in remote powerplant locations. There must be a way to change the laws to encourage this kind of development.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent and thought-provoking article. Cooling towers dispose of heat as though it is a nuisance, though it is really a valuable source of energy. Greenhouses, drying plants and fish farms are all good ways to use excess heat even in remote powerplant locations. There must be a way to change the laws to encourage this kind of development.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rod Adams</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-1321</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rod Adams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 08:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-1321</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sean:



Entire islands like Bermuda, Jamaica, Hawaii, Guam, etc. are completely dependent on oil burning power plants. Others have only natural gas.



With niches like that, we think we have a good place to start. Of course, there is some competition in the space now. Hyperion Power Generation and NuScale have also recognized that there is a need for reliable power in somewhat remote places. I have been studying energy technology for nearly three decades and I only know one alternative to fossil fuel that will work.



I am excited by the fact that it actually works a lot better. As a guy who has lived the high energy, off grid life that fission can provide, I just need to figure out how to get over the first unit hurdle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean:</p>
<p>Entire islands like Bermuda, Jamaica, Hawaii, Guam, etc. are completely dependent on oil burning power plants. Others have only natural gas.</p>
<p>With niches like that, we think we have a good place to start. Of course, there is some competition in the space now. Hyperion Power Generation and NuScale have also recognized that there is a need for reliable power in somewhat remote places. I have been studying energy technology for nearly three decades and I only know one alternative to fossil fuel that will work.</p>
<p>I am excited by the fact that it actually works a lot better. As a guy who has lived the high energy, off grid life that fission can provide, I just need to figure out how to get over the first unit hurdle.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rod Adams</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-17982</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rod Adams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 08:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-17982</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sean:



Entire islands like Bermuda, Jamaica, Hawaii, Guam, etc. are completely dependent on oil burning power plants. Others have only natural gas.



With niches like that, we think we have a good place to start. Of course, there is some competition in the space now. Hyperion Power Generation and NuScale have also recognized that there is a need for reliable power in somewhat remote places. I have been studying energy technology for nearly three decades and I only know one alternative to fossil fuel that will work.



I am excited by the fact that it actually works a lot better. As a guy who has lived the high energy, off grid life that fission can provide, I just need to figure out how to get over the first unit hurdle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean:</p>
<p>Entire islands like Bermuda, Jamaica, Hawaii, Guam, etc. are completely dependent on oil burning power plants. Others have only natural gas.</p>
<p>With niches like that, we think we have a good place to start. Of course, there is some competition in the space now. Hyperion Power Generation and NuScale have also recognized that there is a need for reliable power in somewhat remote places. I have been studying energy technology for nearly three decades and I only know one alternative to fossil fuel that will work.</p>
<p>I am excited by the fact that it actually works a lot better. As a guy who has lived the high energy, off grid life that fission can provide, I just need to figure out how to get over the first unit hurdle.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sean Casten</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-1320</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sean Casten]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-1320</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rod,



Yes, I&#039;d agree with you that those economics work, but it&#039;s a niche application.  The efficiency &amp; economics I&#039;m doing really relate to grid-connected power supplies, whether centrally- or locally-sited that must compete against the relevant buss bar rate.



To some degree, that is admittedly a matter of marketing strategy (e.g., entry markets vs. long term markets), but I would caution you that many an emerging technology - from fuel cells to solar - have looked at the off-grid space as an entry spot, with only mixed results.  I am by no means an expert in those markets, but my understanding is that the challenge has been more one of inertia &amp; infrastructure than fundamental economics.  The odds are good that within 20 miles of an off-grid application, there&#039;s someone who knows how to fix an engine, keeps a supply of spare spark plugs on hand and can spare some fuel oil if you&#039;re in a pinch.  Not so for other techs, for better or for worse.  This has made those hard to crack, notwithstanding the competing economics.



Anyway, that&#039;s off topic here - just a word of caution.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rod,</p>
<p>Yes, I&#8217;d agree with you that those economics work, but it&#8217;s a niche application.  The efficiency &amp; economics I&#8217;m doing really relate to grid-connected power supplies, whether centrally- or locally-sited that must compete against the relevant buss bar rate.</p>
<p>To some degree, that is admittedly a matter of marketing strategy (e.g., entry markets vs. long term markets), but I would caution you that many an emerging technology &#8211; from fuel cells to solar &#8211; have looked at the off-grid space as an entry spot, with only mixed results.  I am by no means an expert in those markets, but my understanding is that the challenge has been more one of inertia &amp; infrastructure than fundamental economics.  The odds are good that within 20 miles of an off-grid application, there&#8217;s someone who knows how to fix an engine, keeps a supply of spare spark plugs on hand and can spare some fuel oil if you&#8217;re in a pinch.  Not so for other techs, for better or for worse.  This has made those hard to crack, notwithstanding the competing economics.</p>
<p>Anyway, that&#8217;s off topic here &#8211; just a word of caution.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sean Casten</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-17981</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sean Casten]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-17981</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rod,



Yes, I&#039;d agree with you that those economics work, but it&#039;s a niche application.  The efficiency &amp; economics I&#039;m doing really relate to grid-connected power supplies, whether centrally- or locally-sited that must compete against the relevant buss bar rate.



To some degree, that is admittedly a matter of marketing strategy (e.g., entry markets vs. long term markets), but I would caution you that many an emerging technology - from fuel cells to solar - have looked at the off-grid space as an entry spot, with only mixed results.  I am by no means an expert in those markets, but my understanding is that the challenge has been more one of inertia &amp; infrastructure than fundamental economics.  The odds are good that within 20 miles of an off-grid application, there&#039;s someone who knows how to fix an engine, keeps a supply of spare spark plugs on hand and can spare some fuel oil if you&#039;re in a pinch.  Not so for other techs, for better or for worse.  This has made those hard to crack, notwithstanding the competing economics.



Anyway, that&#039;s off topic here - just a word of caution.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rod,</p>
<p>Yes, I&#8217;d agree with you that those economics work, but it&#8217;s a niche application.  The efficiency &amp; economics I&#8217;m doing really relate to grid-connected power supplies, whether centrally- or locally-sited that must compete against the relevant buss bar rate.</p>
<p>To some degree, that is admittedly a matter of marketing strategy (e.g., entry markets vs. long term markets), but I would caution you that many an emerging technology &#8211; from fuel cells to solar &#8211; have looked at the off-grid space as an entry spot, with only mixed results.  I am by no means an expert in those markets, but my understanding is that the challenge has been more one of inertia &amp; infrastructure than fundamental economics.  The odds are good that within 20 miles of an off-grid application, there&#8217;s someone who knows how to fix an engine, keeps a supply of spare spark plugs on hand and can spare some fuel oil if you&#8217;re in a pinch.  Not so for other techs, for better or for worse.  This has made those hard to crack, notwithstanding the competing economics.</p>
<p>Anyway, that&#8217;s off topic here &#8211; just a word of caution.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rod Adams</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-1319</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rod Adams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 00:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-1319</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sean:



It is a pleasure to enter into a discussion with someone who can actually run numbers. I have no quibbles with your figures, but I neglected to provide a few more details about the specific context of my discussion with the financial types. We were not talking about 1000 MWe or larger machines. As you have accurately pointed out, those machines are not appropriate for heat recovery systems.



The power plants that are the right size to locate near heat customers are on the order of 5-50 MWe. They would not be remote, but close to customers in order to successfully transmit the waste heat.



In that size range, we are not trying to compete against utility scale plants that have access to cheap fuel like mine mouth coal. Instead, we are aiming to supply power in place where it is useful but either supplied by a 5-50 MWe diesel engine or not available at all.



At current prices for diesel fuel, assuming a very efficient machine with a heat rate of 8,000 BTU per kilowatt hour, the fuel cost alone is running at about 28 cents per kilowatt hour.



Large diesel engines will cost at least $1000 and probably more like $3000 per KW new and they need regular maintenance by well trained people. Besides, they are notoriously dirty and CO2 emitting.



I hope you can now see why we believe that the ROI might be high enough to attract private capital.



BTW - I just read an interesting article in Fortune about Bill Gates and his plans after leaving Microsoft. Apparently he has already made an investment with a VC that is working on a nuclear energy project.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean:</p>
<p>It is a pleasure to enter into a discussion with someone who can actually run numbers. I have no quibbles with your figures, but I neglected to provide a few more details about the specific context of my discussion with the financial types. We were not talking about 1000 MWe or larger machines. As you have accurately pointed out, those machines are not appropriate for heat recovery systems.</p>
<p>The power plants that are the right size to locate near heat customers are on the order of 5-50 MWe. They would not be remote, but close to customers in order to successfully transmit the waste heat.</p>
<p>In that size range, we are not trying to compete against utility scale plants that have access to cheap fuel like mine mouth coal. Instead, we are aiming to supply power in place where it is useful but either supplied by a 5-50 MWe diesel engine or not available at all.</p>
<p>At current prices for diesel fuel, assuming a very efficient machine with a heat rate of 8,000 BTU per kilowatt hour, the fuel cost alone is running at about 28 cents per kilowatt hour.</p>
<p>Large diesel engines will cost at least $1000 and probably more like $3000 per KW new and they need regular maintenance by well trained people. Besides, they are notoriously dirty and CO2 emitting.</p>
<p>I hope you can now see why we believe that the ROI might be high enough to attract private capital.</p>
<p>BTW &#8211; I just read an interesting article in Fortune about Bill Gates and his plans after leaving Microsoft. Apparently he has already made an investment with a VC that is working on a nuclear energy project.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rod Adams</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-17980</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rod Adams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 00:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-17980</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sean:



It is a pleasure to enter into a discussion with someone who can actually run numbers. I have no quibbles with your figures, but I neglected to provide a few more details about the specific context of my discussion with the financial types. We were not talking about 1000 MWe or larger machines. As you have accurately pointed out, those machines are not appropriate for heat recovery systems.



The power plants that are the right size to locate near heat customers are on the order of 5-50 MWe. They would not be remote, but close to customers in order to successfully transmit the waste heat.



In that size range, we are not trying to compete against utility scale plants that have access to cheap fuel like mine mouth coal. Instead, we are aiming to supply power in place where it is useful but either supplied by a 5-50 MWe diesel engine or not available at all.



At current prices for diesel fuel, assuming a very efficient machine with a heat rate of 8,000 BTU per kilowatt hour, the fuel cost alone is running at about 28 cents per kilowatt hour.



Large diesel engines will cost at least $1000 and probably more like $3000 per KW new and they need regular maintenance by well trained people. Besides, they are notoriously dirty and CO2 emitting.



I hope you can now see why we believe that the ROI might be high enough to attract private capital.



BTW - I just read an interesting article in Fortune about Bill Gates and his plans after leaving Microsoft. Apparently he has already made an investment with a VC that is working on a nuclear energy project.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean:</p>
<p>It is a pleasure to enter into a discussion with someone who can actually run numbers. I have no quibbles with your figures, but I neglected to provide a few more details about the specific context of my discussion with the financial types. We were not talking about 1000 MWe or larger machines. As you have accurately pointed out, those machines are not appropriate for heat recovery systems.</p>
<p>The power plants that are the right size to locate near heat customers are on the order of 5-50 MWe. They would not be remote, but close to customers in order to successfully transmit the waste heat.</p>
<p>In that size range, we are not trying to compete against utility scale plants that have access to cheap fuel like mine mouth coal. Instead, we are aiming to supply power in place where it is useful but either supplied by a 5-50 MWe diesel engine or not available at all.</p>
<p>At current prices for diesel fuel, assuming a very efficient machine with a heat rate of 8,000 BTU per kilowatt hour, the fuel cost alone is running at about 28 cents per kilowatt hour.</p>
<p>Large diesel engines will cost at least $1000 and probably more like $3000 per KW new and they need regular maintenance by well trained people. Besides, they are notoriously dirty and CO2 emitting.</p>
<p>I hope you can now see why we believe that the ROI might be high enough to attract private capital.</p>
<p>BTW &#8211; I just read an interesting article in Fortune about Bill Gates and his plans after leaving Microsoft. Apparently he has already made an investment with a VC that is working on a nuclear energy project.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-1318</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 14:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-1318</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not to contradict you, but a 1930&#039;s Ford Model T gets 25mpg, which is nearly identical to todays average US car/suv. Overseas it is another story...



Re the wasted heat from powerplants, in Europe (darn them crafty Europeans) powerplant&#039;s waste heat is often used to heat the homes near the facility.



In Germany and Denmark it is quite common for a community to own their own windfarm or powerplant cooperatively, so the motivation to have a clean efficient power source is high.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to contradict you, but a 1930&#8217;s Ford Model T gets 25mpg, which is nearly identical to todays average US car/suv. Overseas it is another story&#8230;</p>
<p>Re the wasted heat from powerplants, in Europe (darn them crafty Europeans) powerplant&#8217;s waste heat is often used to heat the homes near the facility.</p>
<p>In Germany and Denmark it is quite common for a community to own their own windfarm or powerplant cooperatively, so the motivation to have a clean efficient power source is high.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/26/electricity-generation-efficiency-its-not-about-the-technology/#comment-17979</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 14:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cleantechnica.com/?p=583#comment-17979</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not to contradict you, but a 1930&#039;s Ford Model T gets 25mpg, which is nearly identical to todays average US car/suv. Overseas it is another story...



Re the wasted heat from powerplants, in Europe (darn them crafty Europeans) powerplant&#039;s waste heat is often used to heat the homes near the facility.



In Germany and Denmark it is quite common for a community to own their own windfarm or powerplant cooperatively, so the motivation to have a clean efficient power source is high.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to contradict you, but a 1930&#8217;s Ford Model T gets 25mpg, which is nearly identical to todays average US car/suv. Overseas it is another story&#8230;</p>
<p>Re the wasted heat from powerplants, in Europe (darn them crafty Europeans) powerplant&#8217;s waste heat is often used to heat the homes near the facility.</p>
<p>In Germany and Denmark it is quite common for a community to own their own windfarm or powerplant cooperatively, so the motivation to have a clean efficient power source is high.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
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